Question for religious parents

In article ,
dragonlady says...

In article . com,
wrote:

The anti-religious folks don't go door to door, and I don't think anyone
has suggested that it is quite as common to run into pushy atheists.

But that doesn't mean the obnoxious atheist zealots are any more fun to
deal with.

There's really two different issues: there's the anti-religion
sentiment, that makes some people make fun of kids for not being
available on the sabbath or say rude things to a woman wearing her hair
covered. I'm a religious person in a very liberal faith -- you should
have heard some of the crap I got for not letting my kids take part in
an extra-curricular school thing that took place on Sunday mornings!

Then there's the strong antheists who seem to think that only uneducated
or immature, superstitious people believe in God -- and are more than
happy to tell you what an idiot you are if you express a belief.
Somehow, that seems to be considered (by some) to be more socially
acceptable.


It seems like you are limiting atheists to those two catagories. I
could be reading what you said wrong. So please clarify this for me.

Heavens, no!

*Heavens* no?

Is that a real "no" when you're talking to an atheist? ;-)

Banty

On Sat, 25 Feb 2006 06:20:47 GMT, dragonlady
wrote:

But that doesn't mean the obnoxious atheist zealots are any more fun to
deal with.

Do you have anyone in mind? Online, perhaps vbg


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

So you'd be in the second category?

NO! Did you not READ what I said? In the second catagory it said:"and
are more than
happy to tell you what an idiot you are if you express a belief."

I said:"I'll be honest here, I do think that for the most part that
everyone would be an atheist if they thought critically about thier
religions, but frankly, I don't care. People can live thier lives how
they see fit. And I can live mine. Not all atheists fall into those two
catagories. So I just wanted to make sure I wasn't confused."

I've said repeatedly "I live and let live"...and you discount that
because you misread one statement. I can THINK religious people are
morons all I want, but I don't say it to them and I provide them the
same respect I provide ALL people.

After a fashion -- but only if she feels free to make sure those who are
theists KNOW she thinks they're unthinking.

And I DON'T feel free to do that, in order to live in a harmonious (sp)
society we need to live and let live. That is my motto and has been for
a long time now. You can believe what you want, provided it doesnt'
intrude on my life, and I can believe what I want, as long as it
doesnt' intrude on your life. I keep quiet about these things when
possible. However, some religious people force me to say what I think,
mainly my family, because they accuse me of nasty things. Also, when
religious beliefs are forced on me, such as intelligent design.

In day to day life and in 99% of all situations I find no need to talk
about these things. My dad tells me to say my prayers when he calls and
I say "Ok"...I don't get all pushy on him. Live and let live...the
world would be much better if EVERYONE did this. The problem is like i
said before some religious people have an interest in forcing thier
version of life on people because they want to save them from going to
hell. So, in a way the whole "live and let live" system goes to hell.

wrote in message
oups.com...
So you'd be in the second category?

NO! Did you not READ what I said? In the second catagory it said:"and
are more than
happy to tell you what an idiot you are if you express a belief."

I said:"I'll be honest here, I do think that for the most part that
everyone would be an atheist if they thought critically about thier
religions, but frankly, I don't care. People can live thier lives how
they see fit. And I can live mine. Not all atheists fall into those two
catagories. So I just wanted to make sure I wasn't confused."

I've said repeatedly "I live and let live"...and you discount that
because you misread one statement. I can THINK religious people are
morons all I want, but I don't say it to them and I provide them the
same respect I provide ALL people.

Well, you've just told every religious person *here* that
you think they are morons. And I think it's rather hard
to treat people with real respect if you actually think they
are morons. I'm willing to bet your attitude leaks through
more than you think--just like someone who thinks you
are going to hell for your beliefs may not actually *say*
so, but it might be obvious in their expression or actions.

You might want to practice real tolerance, and consider
that people may have their own valid reasons for having a
strong religious belief that do not include "because they
are morons and too stupid to know any better."

Bizby

In article ,
toto wrote:

On Sat, 25 Feb 2006 06:20:47 GMT, dragonlady
wrote:

But that doesn't mean the obnoxious atheist zealots are any more fun to
deal with.

Do you have anyone in mind? Online, perhaps vbg

When I wrote that I wasn't thinking of any particular individual -- but
now that you mention it --

--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

"because they are morons and too stupid to know any better."

Exactly who are you quoting there? I don't think you are following in
the entire conversation. I didn't say that I think all religious people
are morons, I said I can *think* that but not say it. I didn't say that
I *did* think that. Follow along better.

I DID say however that I think religious people aren't critical
thinkers in terms of thier religion. And a lot of religious people will
agree with that. They don't critically analize thier religion.

I do practice "real" tolerence. You don't know me, you don't know
anything about my real life. Everyone I love is intensly religious
except my husband. I am speaking on the internet candidly because I
CANNOT do that in my REAL life. I am not allowed to have my own
opinions be free. My opinions are, and for the most part, will always
be kept to myself because I am an extreme minority and I prefer to have
my family in my life. So do NOT talk to ME about tolerence. My entire
life is walking egg shells around my catholic, mormon and protestant
family. And every single one of them will tell you I'm the easiest
person in the world to get along with. This is the internet, it's a
tool and I'm using it.

And do not EVER make a fake quote from me again please.

bizby writes:

You might want to practice real tolerance, and consider that people may
have their own valid reasons for having a strong religious belief that
do not include "because they are morons and too stupid to know any
better."

Well, "because they are morons" is hyperbole, not IIRC intended to be taken
seriously. But, and I do intend this to be taken seriously, I don't think
we can get away from the uncomfortable truth that many (most?) of us *do*
actually think that the majority of other people in the world are very
seriously mistaken in their religious beliefs or lack of them. True, there
are some people with sufficiently wishy-washy beliefs themselves to think
that it doesn't matter what other people believe, they're all as right and
as wrong as one another, but you can't expect everyone to feel that way.
Maybe you don't expect that, but what you wrote above sounds a bit like it.

What's a "valid reason" to hold an incorrect belief? It depends on what you
mean by "valid" of course - most people believe whatever they do because
they grew up surrounded by people who believed the same. Is that "valid"?
Well, it's understandable, but that doesn't make the belief any less wrong.
If I feel that I understand why someone holds a belief, but I think that
they haven't ever questioned it and that that fact tells me something about
that person's character or intellect, and if I trust that person's
judgement a little less because of it, does that make me intolerant in your
eyes? If so, so be it. I think most people, of many different kinds of
belief, feel the same way if they're honest.

And if you think what's been said in this thread (about why religious
people believe) is intolerant, try listening to what many evangelical
Christians (and their preachers) say about why people who have been exposed
to Christianity nevertheless don't follow it!! (For example, the religious
leader of a dear friend of mine once encouraged his flock to bring all
their unbelieving friends to a service - I went, out of loyalty to her and
out of curiosity - and proceeded to preach a sermon about how selfish,
unthinking, materialistic, etc. etc. we all were. I'm very happy that she's
since given up that and in fact all religion, and I'm not ashamed to say
so.)

Personally I think "real tolerance" is neither possible *nor desirable* for
most people, if I understand correctly what you mean by it. (Not desirable,
because aiming for it involves suppressing one's own critical faculties.)
And if we draw attention to our beliefs, whether that's by what we say or
by what we do, I don't, personally, think we can complain if others express
their disapproval of our beliefs. Like it or not, religion is something on
which people have strong differences of opinion, and where most people
think those differences matter a lot. A position does not automatically
deserve respect because it is "religious". I'm happy that the government of
my country has recently preserved our right to criticise, attack, mock,
ridicule etc. religious beliefs. Not because I think that's a good thing to
do - I think the occasions when it's justified to do so are few - but
because I think that criminalising that would have put religious beliefs on
a pedestal they don't deserve.

By all means let's "pick our battles" and not go discussing religion with
people who don't want to do it, but let's not pretend we can have something
we can't have, harmony of belief among us all. That pretence won't help.
Better to accept that we have strong differences of opinion but still need
one another.

JMO of course!

Sidheag
DS Colin Oct 27 2003

On Sat, 25 Feb 2006 22:32:03 GMT, dragonlady
wrote:

In article ,
toto wrote:

On Sat, 25 Feb 2006 06:20:47 GMT, dragonlady
wrote:

But that doesn't mean the obnoxious atheist zealots are any more fun to
deal with.

Do you have anyone in mind? Online, perhaps vbg

When I wrote that I wasn't thinking of any particular individual -- but
now that you mention it --

Thought so..




--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

wrote:
So you'd be in the second category?

NO! Did you not READ what I said?

Dang it, I'm getting my money back from Evelyn Wood...

But seriously, in the big context, dragonlady's full paragraph was:

"Then there's the strong antheists who seem to think that only
uneducated
or immature, superstitious people believe in God -- and are more than
happy to tell you what an idiot you are if you express a belief.
Somehow, that seems to be considered (by some) to be more socially
acceptable. "

To which you replied:

I said:"I'll be honest here, I do think that for the most part that
everyone would be an atheist if they thought critically about thier
religions, but frankly, I don't care. People can live thier lives how
they see fit. And I can live mine. Not all atheists fall into those two
catagories. So I just wanted to make sure I wasn't confused."

I apologize if I misinterpreted what you mean by 'thought critically'
-- in *this* venue, it seemed to me that you were more aligned with the
second category in dragonlady's paragraph, by implying (again, my
interpretation) that religious people weren't critical thinkers. And
again, my assumption is based on my belief that stating that someone
is not a critical thinker is an unflattering assessment of the
non-critical thinker's intelligence.

I've said repeatedly "I live and let live"...and you discount that
because you misread one statement. I can THINK religious people are
morons all I want, but I don't say it to them and I provide them the
same respect I provide ALL people.

I'm all for 'live and let live' and in no way wanted to say, hey, you
should censor your feeings (heck, I'm the card-carrying ACLU member).
At the same time, I also believe (sort of like Ashcroft, oddly enough)
that internet dialogue is also part of 'real life.'

Caledonia