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Male Reproductive Choice - thoughts?



 
 
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  #21  
Old December 10th 05, 10:57 PM posted to alt.child-support
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Default Male Reproductive Choice - thoughts?


"Beverly" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 00:22:49 -0800, "teachrmama"
wrote:


"Beverly" wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 5 Dec 2005 20:16:40 -0800, "teachrmama"
wrote:

So are you saying that, since the system we have is, in your opinion,
fairly
serving the majority, the "small number" that are being treated unfairly
by
the system should just "take it"?


I'm interested in hearing how you think my ideas would have affected
your husband. Either he would have been notified much sooner or would
have been liable for child support only after he was notified. Would
this not have been much more fair to him? He also would have had the
right to say he was not now going to be the father of a half grown
child, although I suspect he would have taken responsibility. He
should have never been hit with the arrears, IMO, though.


I absolutely agree that nobody should be held accountable for arrears for
the years before they even knew the child existed. That is unbelievably
unfair in my opinion. I think that a man confronted with a half grown--or
even a very young--child he did not know about should have the freedom to
say "The mother had a choice to give the child both a mother and a father,
and she chose to be a single mother." and walk away. I also think that
the
father should be given information about the true cost of raising a child
in
the area the child lives in--not the cost of living nonsense the courts
spew
out--and choose how much he wants to pay. From half the actual cost of
the
child's needs, to however much he wants to pay--if he chooses to be a
father. My husband has a family to support--and taking the amount they do
out of his check each month makes finances a bit tight. His child and her
mother live in a very low cost of living area. The amount taken from his
paycheck is what some bread-winners earn in that area, because we live in
a
high cost of living area so the salaries *look* high. The man who was
dreadfully wronged by having his child kept from him for all those years
should have the right to balance his responsibilities toward his newly
discovered child (should he choose to be a father to the child) and his
present circumstances. And I, personally, feel that he should have the
right to sue the woman who kept his child a secret from him!


If he did and won, it would set a precedent that might make women
think twice about how quickly they should tell the father and/or
whether courts would be willing to set child support retroactive to
birth.

I'm sure not many have thought of this, but retroactive support during
a period of time a woman CHOSE to be a single parent can be construed
as monetary damages... the key ingredient for a civil suit. It would
really have nothing to do with lost time with the child (which cannot
be measured in dollars) as much as it would be a financial burden
placed upon a man unknowingly which may have affected financial
decisions he made during the period of secrecy. If your husband could
prove that the mother of his child did or should have known of his
whereabouts during gestation and shortly after childbirth, then a
decision she made unilaterally to be a single parent (even though she
changed her mind later when deciding to sue for support) had
repercussions on your husband that would have influenced his decisions
had he known. Heck, YOU made decisions you may not have otherwise
should this not have been kept a secret.

Of course, suing a single mother while she is trying to raise a child
about the money USED to "support the child" is likely to cause
outrage; however, if it could be done as to not harm the child (i.e.
once the child reaches majority or a judgment that does not commence
until the child reaches majority), it may be effective in sending a
message that her decision of secrecy caused this man to get in over
his head financially which would not have been the case should he have
known.

Family court is a very unfriendly place for fathers, but civil court
is a different animal altogether. It is not that he is/was unwilling
to support his child. It is the effect that her secrecy had on his
future decisions. "If not for [her (in)actions], he would not have
[entered into similar long-term obligations such as having more
children]." People's (in)actions that have caused another harm have a
long precedent in favor of the injured in civil court.

He DOES have a right to sue, but the case would need to be phrased in
a very particular way for any chance of winning. It would be handled
by a different kind of lawyer (possibly a personal injury attorney)
whose fees are often contingent. The attorney would have to be a good
spin-doctor in order to convince the judge that it is not about the
child and his responsibility to support the child; rather, it is how
the secrecy caused him to make future decisions he may otherwise not
have made if not for her secrecy.


I have really though about just what you are talking about here. But it
would be a waste of time, because the mother has never worked a day in her
life--she has herself firmly entrenched at the public trough. (An unkind way
to say it, but true nonetheless) But I am sure there are men out there for
whom it might be feasible to take this step.

I wonder about a lot of things in the system. Let's say a man and a woman
have a child together and his name is on the birth certificate. When the
child is just a few weeks old the man takes her and leaves. No warning--he
just leaves with the child. He hasn't broken any laws--he is the father
according to any measure. He lays low until the child is 9 years old. Then
he sues the mother for child support. Anyone care to hazard a guess as to
whether he is awarded arrearages and current support?


  #22  
Old December 11th 05, 12:39 AM posted to alt.child-support
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Default Male Reproductive Choice - thoughts?


"teachrmama" wrote

I wonder about a lot of things in the system. Let's say a man and a woman
have a child together and his name is on the birth certificate. When the
child is just a few weeks old the man takes her and leaves. No
warning--he just leaves with the child. He hasn't broken any laws--he is
the father according to any measure. He lays low until the child is 9
years old. Then he sues the mother for child support. Anyone care to
hazard a guess as to whether he is awarded arrearages and current support?

====
Not to mention custody?
===


  #23  
Old December 12th 05, 09:31 PM posted to alt.child-support
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Default Male Reproductive Choice - thoughts?

And well if it is in my right as a man to say... Woa... no I don't
want that child I just had a hand in creating... why would I spend the
time, effort and money in purchasing a condom, when most men will tell
you sex without a condom is much more enjoyable.


If men had that right, the playing field would still be noticably
tilted, but now in favor of the man. To avoid being a mother, a woman
needs to either have an abortion, or deliver and give the baby up for
adoption, while the man just says "Woa, I'm out". What's the physical
pain & mental suffering cost of an intentional abortion? Somewhere
around $1000 to $5000? Whatever it is, men should have to pay that to
get out if the woman chooses to keep the baby. It's a lot less than
child support for the rest of their life, but it's more than $0. (The
$1000 to get out would only be possible for a small window after they
learn about the child, just as the woman has a small window to choose
to have an abortion or give the baby up for adoption. After that, it's
assumed the man wanted the child, and the current child support rules
would hold.)

  #24  
Old December 13th 05, 04:04 AM posted to alt.child-support
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Default Male Reproductive Choice - thoughts?


wrote:
And well if it is in my right as a man to say... Woa... no I don't
want that child I just had a hand in creating... why would I spend the
time, effort and money in purchasing a condom, when most men will tell
you sex without a condom is much more enjoyable.


If men had that right, the playing field would still be noticably
tilted, but now in favor of the man. To avoid being a mother, a woman
needs to either have an abortion, or deliver and give the baby up for
adoption, while the man just says "Woa, I'm out". What's the physical
pain & mental suffering cost of an intentional abortion? Somewhere
around $1000 to $5000? Whatever it is, men should have to pay that to
get out if the woman chooses to keep the baby. It's a lot less than
child support for the rest of their life, but it's more than $0. (The
$1000 to get out would only be possible for a small window after they
learn about the child, just as the woman has a small window to choose
to have an abortion or give the baby up for adoption. After that, it's
assumed the man wanted the child, and the current child support rules
would hold.)


I like the idea of a payment method. An amount the average guy would
feel in his pocket book to make him think twice. But to whom shall
this money be paid?

Should it be given as a donation to a Child Care or Adoption agency.
Is it given to the woman as a form of punitive damages. Cause the
major downfall to the idea in my mind is the ease in which it could be
exploited.

If she informs 7 different men of the prospective child. Do all 7
men have to pay into this.. Because the true identity could not be
determined till after the birth of the child, or if a DNA can be done
in the womb, not till so late in the pregancy that an abortion would
not be allowed under law.

And even if the man pays this money to get out of it... If she keeps
the child, and cannot affoard to raise the child on her own... where
does she seek help? Welfare. Who pays for welfare.. Tax Money. Who
pays Taxes.. you and I do..

So in essense you allow the man to get out of the deal of help offset
some of the finicial burnden of a child to the public at large. Well I
honestly don't want to be forced into paying for somone else mistake.

To me the rules as they stand may not be perfect. No Law is... as
there will always be somone who disagrees with them. And can find
reason why the law should not apply to them, be it a good reason or
not.

Problem with the design of laws they have to work for the Majority of
the population, not just a small portion. And I've said this before.
The number of people who are truely upset about the way the current
laws sits is so small.

Not sure in percentage wise... but lets put it this way... the only
place I've ever heard of anyone being truely upset with the current
state of reproductive laws... not Child Support Laws.. or Custody
Laws.. those are completly different.

But only focusing on Reproductive Laws... the Rights of Men and
Women... well the only place I've heard any complaints is here in the
News Group and some radical web pages.

To me the average person in Society understands the risks involved
when having sex.. and I'll take it one step further.. part of the
enjoyment of Sex is the know of the potential side effects... living
life on the dangerous side...

Once the understanding of the Side Effects of Sex are played in.. and
you decide to participate... Well you play at your own risk.

SpiderHam77

 




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