Question about vaccinations for toddler and baby

On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:59:02 -0400, "Melody"
wrote:

"Jeff" wrote in message
...

And the way you know that she won't be exposed to a blood transfusion is
what?

They screen donated blood for HIV, HepB, and many, many other things.

You trust "them" to keep a clean blood supply just in case you need
it, but choose not to protect yourself personally?

I don't wear my seatbelt because "they" made traffic lights and wrote
traffic laws. Duh!

So she never gets any scratches or anything?

She never gets scratched by things with fecal matter on them, no. Even so,
do you have any idea how rare tetanus is?

Again, thanks to the vaccine.

I spent many years as a glass and
metal artist, have been cut thousands of times and have never had a tetanus
shot.

I smoked for 50 years and there's nothing wrong with MY lungs! I never
wear my seatbelt and I've never been hurt in a car crash!

It's all a matter of relative risk, not one person's anecdote of luck,
ding-dong.

When I start letting my child play with rusy nails covered in horse
poo I might consider her at risk.

It's not all about filth.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00017686.htm

Tell me your daughter never walks barefoot outdoors.

Yet, in studies comparing the rates of autism in kids who had vaccines vs.
kids who didn't, there was no difference in the rates of autism. A lot of
people might attribute autism to mercury poisoning, giving birth at 4:00
am or kids going out to play when Venus is rising in the sky. But the
evidence to date indicates that autism in not caused at all by mercury.

So why is the goverment paying people for vaccine related injuries
(including autism)?

The U.S. government sure isn't "paying" anyone for autism related to a
vaccine injury, that's for sure.

While there's no direct evidence saying that vaccines
can cause autism there's no direct evidence saying that they can't.

And there's no direct evidence saying that vaccines didn't cause the
long hairs that grow out of my ears, either! I want the government to
pay ME money too!!

If you've ever spent any real time with a severely autistic child I'm sure
you'll understand not wanting to take the risk.

Oh, my, aren't you so experienced with autism. There you go again,
admitting you're reasoning without logic. Appealing to one's sense of
injustice when faced with a severely disabled child to fool him into
thinking your conjecture is true simply because it can't be proven
false is not doing anyone any favors. Yes, I can understand not
wanting to "take the risk." But when the risk has been proven to be
either (1) zero, or (2) so small as to be unmeasurable even when
studying 9,000,000 doses of vaccine, I think it can be safely
disregarded, and other, more pressing risks, such as that of a measles
outbreak or the risk of autism from congenital rubella syndrome, take
precedence.

Does the book mention that kids do die from chicken pox, that hepatitis B
is the leading cause of liver cancer, about the effects of menigitis or
the encephalitis that can happen with measles?

Far, far more kids die in car accidents than from chicken pox, should I keep
her out of the car?

No, the appropriate analogy should be: Should I properly restrain her
in the car with a booster seat or seat belt? Well, do you?

Typically (though not always) children who die from
chicken pox already have an underlying illness or a comprimised immune
system.

It's all about luck, isn't it?

The chicken pox vaccine is not a guarantee that your child won't get
chicken pox later in life when it's several times more likely to do serious
damage.

No vaccine is a guarantee of anything. But I have one word in reply to
your concern about waning immunity: Boosters.

A small child is not at risk for HepB unless it's passed on from the mother
at birth. Why should they be vaccinated for it when they're a few days old?

Ideally, they shouldn't, if the mother is tested for hepatitis B and
known not be a chronic carrier. There is at least one known case of a
newborn who, thanks to the anti-thimerosal freaks, was born during the
moratorium on neonatal hepatitis B vaccination and died from fulminant
acute hepatitis B acquired from his mother who had not been identified
as a carrier. Had routine immunization of neonates continued as usual,
he might have had a chance.

Why not wait until they're at risk?

Do you wait until your car is crashing before you put on your
seatbelt?

My daughter had the MMR, thimersol free,

(thank goodness you found a thimerosal-free version!)

before starting preschool (when she
became at risk to contract it). Instead of subjecting her to 3 doses of this
vaccine we will have her tested (saliva) to see if she is still immune
before starting kindergarten.

No one needs 3 doses of MMR, only 2. And secondly, since the second
MMR is not a booster, opting to test for measles antibody before
giving the second one is a perfectly logical choice.

The risks of not getting vaccinated clearly ourweight the small risks of
vaccination.

In your opinion. Not in mine.

And since you have shown us how you formed your opinion, by embracing
falsehoods and ignorance with a general disregard for logic, you can
be safely ignored.

PF

On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 00:52:09 -0400, "Melody"
wrote:

"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
...

The CDC does not list a version of DT with no thimerosol
(though one is much lower than the others).

I could be wrong, but when I last researched this (it's been a year or more
and I can't recall where I read it) I found a DTaP that was preserved by
formaldahyde instead of thimerosol (though I'm unsure which is worse).

More of Melody's ignorance! "Formaldahyde" [sic] is in DTaP as a
residual from the manufacturing process, NOT a preservative.

Which is worse, thimerosal or formaldehyde? I don't know, you tell me!
Do you prefer fish (laden with mercury) or pears (laden with
formaldehyde)?

PF

Now after replying to Melody's nonsense, time to answer Jill's
questions.

On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:36:48 GMT, "Jill"
wrote:

I have a toddler just over 3 who is going to get his shots, we will try and
catch him up. He is behind in that he has not had the pneumonnoccocal
(should just be one shot now), varricella, mmr. He has had 2 polio, 1 hib
and 2 dtp.

I am glad to hear you have decided to get your child caught up on his
immunizations.

Pneumococcal vaccine is generally used in children under age 2, so if
you are looking to minimize the number of shots he gets, I would skip
that one entirely.

Varicella and MMR vaccine are more pressing, and he should get one
dose of each now, then one more MMR at least one month afterwards and
he's done with those as well. (Unless and until we start advising
varicella boosters for adults, although this will be less likely if we
can achieve universal immunization and hopefully global eradication.)

If he has had 2 doses of polio, why not just wait until age 4 and get
one last one and be done with it? If you're not leaving the country
before then, this should be fine.

Regarding HIB, he needs just one more dose to be done.

Finally, if he has had 2 DTaP's, perhaps you could also stretch one of
the boosters until after age 4 to reduce the number of doses he needs.

1. what shots do you think he should get. I will not do all at once and
will only do 2 at a time.
2. also, if he gets the mmr, will he have to get it in 2 years again as a
booster, or should I wait just before he goes to kindergarten, not sure what
they will do. I do not want to get him that shot again so soon.

Here's a reasonable plan based on your concerns:

Now (just over age 3): Varivax, MMR
in one month: DTaP, HIB
After age 4 (assuming more than 6 months later): DTaP, IPV
Age 5: MMR

Ready for kindergarten!

3. also, will him having shots affect the baby? (8 mos) he is still not
vaccinated and we will start but waiting for a cold to go away. (on
antibiotics). I know some of the shots are live and I am concerned that my
toddler just having shots will make the little one sick if he gets to close
to baby.

I would not worry about your vaccinated toddler affecting the baby at
all. I'd worry more about the baby not being vaccinated!

PF

Melody wrote:

Nor is the effectiveness of a vaccine. If it comes down to my daughter ever
needing a transfusion (highly unlikely, but I'll play along) I'm a universal
donor (O+) and would be more than happy to donate my own (HepB free) blood.

Just to be pedantic, you're not a universal donor.
You can't donate to anyone who is Rh-. O- is the universal
donor, though O+ can donate to just about anyone who is Rh+.
Also, there are cases where blood donations from family are
not encouraged (though I forget what they are at the moment).

Best wishes,
Ericka

Melody wrote:


I could be wrong, but when I last researched this (it's been a year or more
and I can't recall where I read it) I found a DTaP that was preserved by
formaldahyde instead of thimerosol (though I'm unsure which is worse).

There are formaldahyde-free versions.

The acellular version is what is standard now and
(obviously) what is in DTaP. I suspect getting a separate
pertussis vaccine is very difficult now.

Wasn't standard in 1999

Correct. It has changed since then.

Best wishes,
Ericka

PF Riley wrote:

ALL versions of DTaP contain formaldehyde, since that's what they make
it with.

Not arguing that the formaldehyde is a problem,
but the CDC listing does list one version of DTaP as
having formaldehyde as a preservative (along with
2-phenoxyethanol). Presumably, the other versions do
not have it (or have it in such low concentrations as
to be considered formaldehyde free) or I can't imagine
that they would have bothered to single out the one
version of DTaP.

Best wishes,
Ericka

"Melody" wrote in message
...

"Jeff" wrote in message
...

"Melody" wrote in message
...

"Jeff" wrote in message
...


And the way you know that she won't be exposed to a blood
transfusion
is
what?

They screen donated blood for HIV, HepB, and many, many other things.

Screening is not 100% perfect.


Nor is the effectiveness of a vaccine. If it comes down to my daughter
ever
needing a transfusion (highly unlikely, but I'll play along) I'm a
universal
donor (O+) and would be more than happy to donate my own (HepB
free) blood.

If you are available, there is enough time, you don't have a serious illness
at the time and you are still pathogen-free.

And studies show that the general donor pool is actually safer than directed
donors.

So she never gets any scratches or anything?

She never gets scratched by things with fecal matter on them, no.

You mean she never gets scratched by things?

I don't know if you noticed, but hygiene is not too good around kids (by
either the kids or the grownups).


Maybe your house is different from mine... We don't have animals, we
wear
shoes in out fenced back yard, we don't have sharp metal objects laying
around at home or at her school...

And I suspect she never gets any cuts or scratches, there are absolutely no
animals in your back yours and those houses of her friends, and you will be
able to keep an eye on her 24 hours a day until she turns 18.

And even then, you guarentee that she won't get tetanus.

Even so,
do you have any idea how rare tetanus is?

Much rarer, thanks the the vaccine.

I spent many years as a glass and
metal artist, have been cut thousands of times and have never had a
tetanus
shot.

And that glass was clean.


That glass was clean after I cleaned it (many times cutting myself in the
process) I've restored old windows covered in rust and lead. I guarantee
you
the scap metal I used wasn't so clean. Regardless, the likihood of her
contracting tetanus is slim. If she ever recieves a puncture wound from a
dirty object I will take her in for a tetanus shot *that* will have put
her
at risk.

The problem is that you may not be there to observe the punture wound.

Jeff

Melody wrote:
I'm a universal
donor (O+) and would be more than happy to donate my own (HepB free) blood.


I'm pretty sure O neg is universal donor not O pos

Andrea

"Melody" wrote in message
...

"Jill" wrote in message
.net...
Thanks Melody,

What state are you in?

Tennessee, but I have a book with state by state lists of vaccine laws if
you need info.

I agree. I will not get the hepb for my son. He did have the 1st and
reacted to it (dopey, peculiar chirping and lethargic for 2 weeks,
enough
of
that vaccine)


I think it's a stupid one anyway. I'll definitely see that my daughter
gets
one if/when she needs it but at 6 weeks of age she wasn't sexually active
or
using IV drugs, yanno?

IIRC, 1/3rd of all HepB cases have no known vector.

Does the DT come without thimerosol? Perhaps that is an option in
replace
of hte DTaP.

Yes. But I chose not to get that because my daughter has no risk factors
for
diptheria or tetanus,

While she may not have current risk factors for diptheria, she does have a
risk of tetanus.

I had a seprate vaccine administered for pertussis
(whooping cough) only. I also chose to use the acellular version of the
vaccine (versus the whole cell version). The only reason I chose to get
the
pertussis vaccine was because I had whooping cough as a child and it still
causes me problems... fear really moreso than logic.

Actually, you underestimate yourself It was logical.

Also, certain versions of the DTaP contain formaldehyde.

In trace amounts, and of no concern.

You mean the MMR I would get in the peds office has thimerosol in it?


I don't think they do anymore.

MMR never had it. If you think it did, then it is time to re-evalaute your
self education.

My DD was born in 1999 and I believe they did
away with the thimersol in most vaccines in 2001. I would still ask before
having the injection though. Autisim and Mercury posioning have nearly
identical symptoms, a lot of people attribute autism to the thimersol in
vaccines.

Actually, they do not have the same symptoms, as the comparisons are grossly
overstated. See:

www.pediatrics.org/cgi/reprint/111/3/674.pdf

How do you get away with this in daycare and also kindergarten?


Depends on where you live. I can look up your state laws if you'd like. In
Tennessee I can take a philosophical or personal exemption. It's a lot of
paperwork and arguing with people. They also tell me that if any illness
breaks out in her school she isn't vaccinated for that I will have to
withdraw her from school until the "epidemic" is over (woo, woo, Like I
would WANT her there if that were the case)

Some parents do.

I HIGHLY recommend a book called "What Your Doctor May NOT Tell You About
Children's Vaccinations" by Stephanie Cave M.D. F.A.A.F.P. It's extremely
informative without telling you what you should do. I don't base all my
decisions off of one book, but this is a good one.

Read wider.

"Donna Metler" wrote in message
...
Does anyone know on any cites as to whether it is safer to get children
vaccinated over longer periods of time, and to do separate shots vs. the
combined ones? The vaccination protocols I've seen seem to be giving very
young babies a lot of shots at one visit, and that doesn't seem terribly
safe to me-

It is safer for the kids as it decreases the numbeor of needles and the
chance for site reactions.

and since I plan to stay at home anyway, I don't need it all at
one visit to avoid missing work or anything like that.

your convenience is not factored into the immunization schedule.

Both my husband and I
have a lot of allergies and drug sensitivities, so I'm rather expecting
our
child to also have an easily aggravated immune system.

An immune system is like a muscle, the more you use it, the stronger it
becomes.

I remember having less than good reactions to the HepB when I had it-just
generally being sick for several days after each shot, and I was an adult
at
the time. The idea of exposing a baby to that for a virus which is
transmitted solely through body fluids (and is screened for in donated
blood) seems silly until they're old enough to be exposed to other
children.
I could see doing it if your baby was going to be in daycare (the reason I
had to have it was because I was teaching early childhood), but would it
really hurt to wait until the child is entering school? And would it be
better for the immune system to do so?

I definitely will be asking about vaccines not having mercury in
them-given
that you're supposed to avoid eating foods which have possible mercury
exposure while pregnant or breastfeeding, it just doesn't make sense to
inject your child with it. Even if autism isn't caused by mercury, mercury
poisoning is not a good thing either, and a baby has such a small body
weight that it wouldn't take much to be toxic.

Children clear mercury very rapidly through their stools. There is little,
if any accumulation, and they are rid of the mercury within days, if not a
few weeks.