Alternate methods of discipline

On 31 Jan 2004, Kane wrote:

(Daniel) wrote in message ...
costanis wrote:


So what are the legal ramifications these days of spanking your child. I'm
talking about
a proper spanking, not an abusive one.


what is a "proper" spanking?

Seems like some of us ask The Question and some of us ignore The
Question. Let's see if this person can answer The Question: Where
exactly is the boundary between "spanking" and abuse?

Kane

There is none, according to the logic of the anti-spanking zealotS! You
should never spanking your kids. You should never talk to you kids!
Logic and the anti-spanking zealotS.... :-)

Doan

I am not a parent, but my teenage brother has just moved in with me
and I am having some difficulties with him not listening to me. I
believe that if there was a little stronger punishment used on him as
a child that he would not be as disrespectful to myself and others
around him. Talking can only do so much (I think)I agree with
spanking children...but I do think that people easily cross the line.


Doan wrote in message ...
On 31 Jan 2004, Kane wrote:

(Daniel) wrote in message ...
costanis wrote:


So what are the legal ramifications these days of spanking your child. I'm
talking about
a proper spanking, not an abusive one.


what is a "proper" spanking?

Seems like some of us ask The Question and some of us ignore The
Question. Let's see if this person can answer The Question: Where
exactly is the boundary between "spanking" and abuse?

Kane

There is none, according to the logic of the anti-spanking zealotS! You
should never spanking your kids. You should never talk to you kids!
Logic and the anti-spanking zealotS.... :-)

Doan

In article ,
(Nicole) wrote:

I am not a parent, but my teenage brother has just moved in with me
and I am having some difficulties with him not listening to me. I
believe that if there was a little stronger punishment used on him as
a child that he would not be as disrespectful to myself and others
around him. Talking can only do so much (I think)I agree with
spanking children...but I do think that people easily cross the line.

how about dealing with him as an adult? you really think if he had been
knocked around as a child he would 'respect' you now? if he depends on
your for support then he owes you not only respect but also household
help, consideration etc. how about sitting down with him and working
out the house rules -- with respect for him as a young adult and his
desires and talents as well as your needs.


Doan wrote in message
...
On 31 Jan 2004, Kane wrote:

(Daniel) wrote in message
...
costanis wrote:


So what are the legal ramifications these days of spanking your child.
I'm
talking about
a proper spanking, not an abusive one.


what is a "proper" spanking?

Seems like some of us ask The Question and some of us ignore The
Question. Let's see if this person can answer The Question: Where
exactly is the boundary between "spanking" and abuse?

Kane

There is none, according to the logic of the anti-spanking zealotS! You
should never spanking your kids. You should never talk to you kids!
Logic and the anti-spanking zealotS.... :-)

Doan

So there is a line!

Doan

On 2 Feb 2004, Nicole wrote:

I am not a parent, but my teenage brother has just moved in with me
and I am having some difficulties with him not listening to me. I
believe that if there was a little stronger punishment used on him as
a child that he would not be as disrespectful to myself and others
around him. Talking can only do so much (I think)I agree with
spanking children...but I do think that people easily cross the line.


Doan wrote in message ...
On 31 Jan 2004, Kane wrote:

(Daniel) wrote in message ...
costanis wrote:


So what are the legal ramifications these days of spanking your child. I'm
talking about
a proper spanking, not an abusive one.


what is a "proper" spanking?

Seems like some of us ask The Question and some of us ignore The
Question. Let's see if this person can answer The Question: Where
exactly is the boundary between "spanking" and abuse?

Kane

There is none, according to the logic of the anti-spanking zealotS! You
should never spanking your kids. You should never talk to you kids!
Logic and the anti-spanking zealotS.... :-)

Doan

"Jenn" wrote:
:
: I am not a parent, but my teenage brother has just moved
in with me
: and I am having some difficulties with him not listening
to me. I
: believe that if there was a little stronger punishment
used on him as
: a child that he would not be as disrespectful to myself
and others
: around him. Talking can only do so much (I think)I
agree with
: spanking children...but I do think that people easily
cross the line.

I guess it is water under the bridge as far as what has been
done in the past; the more pressing issue being how to deal
with him now. Can't even imagine spanking a teenager, BTW,
although I have to strongly resist the urge to cuff 'em once
in awhile

I have two older teenage daughters that are currently
driving me to distraction and find the best way to deal
with them is the same as with toddlers; be clear and
consistent. I try to keep the rules simple and have solid
reasoning behind them, as well as being constant in my
reactions to offensive behavior and rule breaking. I talk
to them more as adults about what is going on in their lives
and why; we negotiate a bit more because I do like to hear
their take as to why my way is incorrect (I encourage it,
actually, having told them that if they can handle a
rational discussion and present a well thought out argument
they might have at least a chance of swaying me, whereas
pouting, slamming, anger and uncooperativeness firmly sets
the 'No' in cement), and we have more talks about
accountability and being a good citizen.

They complain to their friends about how strict I am, but
have told me many times about pals of theirs whose parents
let them do basically whatever, always adding that the
parent's 'don't care'. So, while they are pushing, kicking
and screaming, they are also aware that the reason I do what
I do is out of love for them and not just to bust their
little arses
--
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Stewie (reading the Bible): "My my, what a thumping good
read, lions eating Christians, people nailing each other to
two by fours. I'll say, you won't find that in Winnie the
Pooh."



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Doan wrote in message ...
So there is a line!

Could be, could be. That someone used the word does not define the
claim. Of course you to logic endowed giants that makes no sense at
all, now does it?

R R R R

Yer always spouting nonsense and claiming it defines something it
doesn't. Well, not to the normal folks anyway.

Here's wonderful example for you. You may recognize the writer:

There is none, according to the logic of the anti-spanking zealotS!

See? Another declaration peddled by you as fact. It's not our logic,
weirdboy. It's the conclusion we draw from YOUR failure to establish
that "line" clearly enough to be of use. I'd consider it a public
service to be corrected in my statement there is no such line
possible. You invite anyone you wish, but please don't just have them
keep repeating there IS a line without defining it.

YOu wouldn't take that from an engineer, now would you? R R R R R

Even the Canadian authorities have admitted in the analysis of their
judicial finding that a "reasonable" standard is indefinable and they,
just like you, had to resort to definition by extremes, all YOU got.

Hell, that's the biggest strawman you every tried to perpetrate here,
Doan, and you've certainly had more than your share of them.

EVERYONE agrees on what abuse is when it happens....but have a
terrible time defining what it is in it's less recognizated
form....JUST AS THE LINE IS CROSSED.

So all yah got's tah do, dog ****er, (incest AND bestiality, oh my) is
tell us where the line is.

You know, like [55 mph] and [No Left Turn on Red] and [No Littering].

I think a responsible parent (leaving you out) who spanks would be
very very concerned about more precision in definition, don't you?

You've got a lot of unfinished business to take care of here,
Doananator.

You challenged me to debate the Embry study, I presume with me as pro
and you as con. Personally I'm more neutral. Some of what he
postulates is dead on, some needs more exploration.....which has been
done by others as well as him over the many years since the study.

Yet you are stalling. Now why would that be?

You didn't answer me the simplest of questions, by the way, to prove
you have, as you claim so belligerently, the Embry study. No one has
posted here they have gotten the study from you as you offered. And
you seem unable to tell me what is on the page I gave you the number
of.

Having a little problem with honesty again, there dog lover? Incest
AND bestiality?..oh my....sure hope you aren't as easy to catch at
those offenses as you are when you lie here in the ng.

You are lousy at bluffing. Wanna play Poker?

Kane

You
should never spanking your kids. You should never talk to you kids!
Logic and the anti-spanking zealotS.... :-)

Doan







Doan

On 2 Feb 2004, Nicole wrote:

I am not a parent, but my teenage brother has just moved in with me
and I am having some difficulties with him not listening to me. I
believe that if there was a little stronger punishment used on him as
a child that he would not be as disrespectful to myself and others
around him. Talking can only do so much (I think)I agree with
spanking children...but I do think that people easily cross the line.


Doan wrote in message ...
On 31 Jan 2004, Kane wrote:

(Daniel) wrote in message ...
costanis wrote:


So what are the legal ramifications these days of spanking your child. I'm
talking about
a proper spanking, not an abusive one.


what is a "proper" spanking?

Seems like some of us ask The Question and some of us ignore The
Question. Let's see if this person can answer The Question: Where
exactly is the boundary between "spanking" and abuse?

Kane

There is none, according to the logic of the anti-spanking zealotS! You
should never spanking your kids. You should never talk to you kids!
Logic and the anti-spanking zealotS.... :-)

Doan

On 2 Feb 2004 08:32:05 -0800, (Nicole)
wrote:

I am not a parent, but my teenage brother has just moved in with me
and I am having some difficulties with him not listening to me. I
believe that if there was a little stronger punishment used on him as
a child that he would not be as disrespectful to myself and others
around him. Talking can only do so much (I think)I agree with
spanking children...but I do think that people easily cross the line.

How close in age are you to him? Remember that you are peers
and you are not his parent, but simply a peer who is trying to help.

You may want to read Positive Discipline for Teenagers by Jane
Nelsen and Lynn Lott if you are going to be taking on a guardian's
role.

Note he Spanking does nothing for children, imo. It teaches
unintended messages and it is not helpful in teaching them self-
discipline which is what they need by the time they are teens.

Talking does nothing unless you listen. The first principle is to
really listen and reflect back what you hear so the both of you
know that you understood what was being said. Once you have
the problem and the feelings understood, you will have much
more success working on them.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

"Doan" wrote in message
...
On 31 Jan 2004, Kane wrote:

(Daniel) wrote in message
...
costanis wrote:


So what are the legal ramifications these days of spanking your
child. I'm
talking about
a proper spanking, not an abusive one.


what is a "proper" spanking?

Seems like some of us ask The Question and some of us ignore The
Question. Let's see if this person can answer The Question: Where
exactly is the boundary between "spanking" and abuse?

Kane

There is none, according to the logic of the anti-spanking zealotS! You
should never spanking your kids. You should never talk to you kids!
Logic and the anti-spanking zealotS.... :-)

Doan


I have some zeal when it comes to my thinking that spanking is dumb, dumb,
dumb. I guess that makes me a zealot. Where did you get the idea that you
should not talk to your kids? Talking is the anti-spank.

S

On Wed, 4 Feb 2004, Stephanie Stowe wrote:


"Doan" wrote in message
...
On 31 Jan 2004, Kane wrote:

(Daniel) wrote in message
...
costanis wrote:


So what are the legal ramifications these days of spanking your
child. I'm
talking about
a proper spanking, not an abusive one.


what is a "proper" spanking?

Seems like some of us ask The Question and some of us ignore The
Question. Let's see if this person can answer The Question: Where
exactly is the boundary between "spanking" and abuse?

Kane

There is none, according to the logic of the anti-spanking zealotS! You
should never spanking your kids. You should never talk to you kids!
Logic and the anti-spanking zealotS.... :-)

Doan


I have some zeal when it comes to my thinking that spanking is dumb, dumb,
dumb. I guess that makes me a zealot. Where did you get the idea that you
should not talk to your kids? Talking is the anti-spank.

S
You can think what you want. A zealotS is one who are out to force
their agenda upon other people. Are you sure you wanted to be one?
If you have been following this thread, anti-spanking zealotS are
claiming that there is NO LINE between spanking and abuse, thus
you should never-spank your kids. They also claimed that there
is NO LINE between talking to your kids and verbal-abuse. Using
that logic, YOU SHOULD NOT TALK TO YOUR KIDS neither! Got it?

Anti-spanking zealotS also claimed that spanking teaches that
hitting is right, as long as you are bigger. Using that logic,
if you take toys away from your kids, you are teaching them
that it is ok to ROB, as long as you are bigger.

Doan

"Doan" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 4 Feb 2004, Stephanie Stowe wrote:


"Doan" wrote in message
...
On 31 Jan 2004, Kane wrote:

(Daniel) wrote in message
...
costanis wrote:


So what are the legal ramifications these days of spanking your
child. I'm
talking about
a proper spanking, not an abusive one.


what is a "proper" spanking?

Seems like some of us ask The Question and some of us ignore The
Question. Let's see if this person can answer The Question: Where
exactly is the boundary between "spanking" and abuse?

Kane

There is none, according to the logic of the anti-spanking zealotS!
You
should never spanking your kids. You should never talk to you kids!
Logic and the anti-spanking zealotS.... :-)

Doan


I have some zeal when it comes to my thinking that spanking is dumb,
dumb,
dumb. I guess that makes me a zealot. Where did you get the idea that
you
should not talk to your kids? Talking is the anti-spank.

S
You can think what you want. A zealotS is one who are out to force
their agenda upon other people. Are you sure you wanted to be one?
If you have been following this thread, anti-spanking zealotS are
claiming that there is NO LINE between spanking and abuse, thus
you should never-spank your kids.



I am not in any great big hurry to tell other parents how to raise their
kids. With responsibility comes authority. Though I do not like the way some
folks use their authority, it is their's not mine.

That said, I really do not think that spanking is ever a better way to
enforce discipline than other methods. I think spanking is always worse than
the alternative. I think it is frequently applied due to lack of
understanding of other methods or the incorrect assumption that to refrain
from spanking is to be "permissive." I would not, however, make spanking the
legal line at which abuse is defined since that would require that these
kids be removed from the home. While spanking is always worse than the
alternatives, removing from the home is not always better than being
spanked. Being removed from the home is no panacea. And I come from a school
of thought that kids are flexible. Spanking, not hatefully or cruelly done,
in the context of misguided love, can be no more harmful than other
parenting blunders.


They also claimed that there
is NO LINE between talking to your kids and verbal-abuse. Using
that logic, YOU SHOULD NOT TALK TO YOUR KIDS neither! Got it?


Site please. That is a little absurd that anyone would claim that. By
overstating the supposed anti-spanking zealot case, you are not doing yours
any favors.

Anti-spanking zealotS also claimed that spanking teaches that
hitting is right, as long as you are bigger. Using that logic,
if you take toys away from your kids, you are teaching them
that it is ok to ROB, as long as you are bigger.


It depends upon what circumstances cause you to take the toy away. If you
are talking about a 2 yo who is hitting his little baby sister with a toy,
they taking the toy away is a natural consequence of your reaction to the
2yo behavior. if you do not allow your child to play with a toy that she has
consistently refused to help clean up, this is a natural consequence of
failing to be a helpful member of a family. But if you take a toy away as a
random punishment for some unrelated offense, then yes you are teaching them
that it is OK to rob as long as you are bigger.

I cannot think of a single behavior for which hitting is a natural or
reasonable consequence. I think in my mind how I would explain to my child
the difference between my child hitting and me hitting him. I cannot. They
all come out sounding like all I want is for you to do what I say and shut
the heck up. None of the explanations demonstrate that my child's best
interest is what is at stake.

So I guess I sum up the need to spank as a lack of imagination and will to
think about the underlying cause of an undesirable behavior and to lash out
with the easiest tool to hand. My limited experience is that it is employed
largely by the ignorant who have not been exposed to anything else,
frequently those who were smacked themselves. You have to be able to see
that other methods work, and work better, to see that spanking is
unnecessary. Fear of getting hit is a poor long term motivator and educator.

S