Is there an equation ?

In article NR9Sb.5813$fD.2539@fed1read02, "Circe"
wrote:

Sue wrote:
And I suspect that Ian doesn't enjoy parenting because
it was thrusted upon him without a choice. Most people
plan a child and are ready mentally for it.

Given that roughly half of pregnancies are unplanned, I"m not sure this is
true. I think a LOT of people have parenthood thrust upon them before they
are mentally ready for it. That doesn't mean that such people don't enjoy
parenting, but I suspect a significant proportion of parents are in Ian's
shoes in one way or another.

.I know I wasn't ready to even think about being a parent until
I was his age that he is now.

Ditto. Funny that I thought early on in the thread that the reason he and
his wife are so tired is that they're young. Man, when I was in my 20s,
there was no way I could have managed the demands of a child. Waiting until
I was in my 30s to have children made a world of difference!

My mom had 4 kids before she was 21, and two more when she was in her
30's. I asked her once what the advantages and disadvantages were to
the two different ages. She said she had more energy to keep up with us
when she was in her teens and early 20's, so that was one advantage to
having kids very young. (On the other hand, when the younger 2 were
born she had 4 kids, and later a job -- when us older 4 were young she
was home full time, but that included managing a household without
running water, raising chickens and growing enough vegetables for the
family (which also meant a lot of canning.)

Man, I get tired when I think about the amount of work she had, with
EITHER set of us!

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

"Nan" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 19:46:18 GMT, "toypup"
wrote:

He's now living in another state. My mom can't understand why he'd want
to
do that. He called her one night after burning some food on the stove.
She
was upset that he had a girlfriend that made him cook (he likes to cook),
he
was up that late (11pm, he's a night owl), he could be home and have her
do
the cooking for him, why is he living so far away? Why is he living away
from home, cooking for himself, when he could be home with her and she
could
be cooking for him? She doesn't get it.

It must be that "after all I've done for you" kind of mindset that
people who over-parent tend to have.

You've described her perfectly.

"Nan" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 23:08:31 GMT, "0tterbot" wrote:

"Nan" wrote in message
.. .

I can have understanding that people get thrust into parenthood when
they're not ready. But, I don't have sympathy when they do nothing
but whine about it, constantly, either.

i wasn't ready when my son was conceived (accidentally) but i was ready
by
the time he was born (which is not to say it wasn't an enormous
adjustment
for a while there :-). isn't that the choice a person makes? if they
can't
foresee being ready by the time the baby's born, they don't have or keep
the
baby.

Agreed, and Ian said they didn't marry until his son was 3, so unless
they lived together and played house for 3 years, he's had plenty of
time to get used to the idea.

ok, i know it's not as easy as that, but i was willing to change my life
to
a child-centred one, as are most accidental parents. "ian" doesn't sound
even remotely child-centred. most accidental parents are amazed at how
much
their child _brings_ to their life, at how much they enjoy it. they
aren't
amazed at how much work at 8 y.o.(!) is. (!!!!)
kylie

Ime, 8 year olds just aren't that much work physically. I know it's
always a ymmv thing, but my ds just wasn't a lot of work.
By the time he was 8, he was getting himself up for school and getting
his own breakfast, dressed, and down to the bus stop. All without
waking me up, as he wanted me to be able to sleep, the darling that he
was :-)

I am sorry, but I think this quite irresponsible of you in this day and age.
An 8 yr old walking themselves to the bus stop? Are you crazy? We walk DS to
school as it is only 5 minutes, but there is no way in hell I would let him
go anywhere alone. He does go and play outside with his friends, but he
always has to stay with someone else. If no one else is out he has to come
in.

I was 10 before I was even allowed out of the house WITH friends. My mother
still feels I shouldn't be letting him play out with friends unsupervised.

Ian wrote:
"Nan" wrote in message
news


Ime, 8 year olds just aren't that much work physically. I know it's
always a ymmv thing, but my ds just wasn't a lot of work.
By the time he was 8, he was getting himself up for school and getting
his own breakfast, dressed, and down to the bus stop. All without
waking me up, as he wanted me to be able to sleep, the darling that he
was :-)


I am sorry, but I think this quite irresponsible of you in this day and age.
An 8 yr old walking themselves to the bus stop? Are you crazy? We walk DS to
school as it is only 5 minutes, but there is no way in hell I would let him
go anywhere alone. He does go and play outside with his friends, but he
always has to stay with someone else. If no one else is out he has to come
in.

No, she isn't crazy. IME, this is what people let 8-year-olds do. I
live in intown Atlanta, and I've let my older child outside to play by
herself since she was about 4 (she's 7.5 now). She doesn't walk to
school, because she goes to private school a couple of miles away, but
if she went to the public school 2 blocks away, she'd be walking (by
herself).

Clisby




I was 10 before I was even allowed out of the house WITH friends. My mother
still feels I shouldn't be letting him play out with friends unsupervised.

"Clisby" wrote in message
...


Ian wrote:
"Nan" wrote in message
news


Ime, 8 year olds just aren't that much work physically. I know it's
always a ymmv thing, but my ds just wasn't a lot of work.
By the time he was 8, he was getting himself up for school and getting
his own breakfast, dressed, and down to the bus stop. All without
waking me up, as he wanted me to be able to sleep, the darling that he
was :-)


I am sorry, but I think this quite irresponsible of you in this day and
age.
An 8 yr old walking themselves to the bus stop? Are you crazy? We walk
DS to
school as it is only 5 minutes, but there is no way in hell I would let
him
go anywhere alone. He does go and play outside with his friends, but he
always has to stay with someone else. If no one else is out he has to
come
in.

No, she isn't crazy. IME, this is what people let 8-year-olds do. I
live in intown Atlanta, and I've let my older child outside to play by
herself since she was about 4 (she's 7.5 now). She doesn't walk to
school, because she goes to private school a couple of miles away, but
if she went to the public school 2 blocks away, she'd be walking (by
herself).

Clisby


Aren't you worried about danger? There have been 3 sexual assaults on
children in the local park in the past 6 months.and we live in a pretty
quite area. I don't see 8 year olds walking to school here alone at all. At
my sons school we are not allowed to leave them in the school grounds
unsupervised before school. We have had letters home about it as parents
have been dropping their kids off at 8.45. Up until they are 10, the school
does not allow children to go home alone without an adult or an older
sibling.

On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 08:38:16 -0800, "Circe" wrote:

Honestly, not really. I *occasionally* sleep in until 8:30 or so, but I've
found as I get older, my capacity for "sleeping in" is decreasing. That may
be a simple fact of biology--they say as you get older, you tend to get
sleepy earlier and wake up earlier. (The opposite of teens, who don't get
sleepy until the wee hours of the morning and then want to sleep until
noon.)

I wish this worked for me. I think it must be metabolic. I just turned
40 and see no signs of my body clock urging me to get to bed earlier.
I'm almost as much of a night owl as I was in my teens (with perhaps a
greater requirement for regular sleep), resulting in little tolerance
for early mornings. Not that I ever sleep in till noon as I used to,
but I don't think that is because I am incapable of it, so much as
that there is always too much to do. Nonetheless, the only time I have
been able to get to sleep before midnight on a regular basis has been
when my kids were infants, and my sleep was interrupted and often
ended at 5:30 am or so. For me, that was the only time when I felt
really "shattered" as a parent and I figure that from here on things
can only improve.

--Lisabell
Mom to Gabriella (5) and Michaela (almost 4)

"Ian"
Aren't you worried about danger? There have been 3 sexual assaults on
children in the local park in the past 6 months.and we live in a pretty
quite area. I don't see 8 year olds walking to school here alone at all.
At
my sons school we are not allowed to leave them in the school grounds
unsupervised before school. We have had letters home about it as parents
have been dropping their kids off at 8.45. Up until they are 10, the
school
does not allow children to go home alone without an adult or an older
sibling.

10 is the accepted age (this week) for a kid to cross a road alone safely,
in terms of their neurology. however, other people's situations mean their
kid could walk down the road to the bus stop or whatever, & in their opinion
it's perfectly safe. i'm quite sure an 8 yo could cross your average, pretty
quiet road in perfect safety (after all, i used to do it myself daily). does
my (newly) 8 year old? no he doesn't. but that's because i say he can't &
when he can i'll let him know. the street we live on is horrendous.

you must really be torn between collapsing into bed at 10pm shattered, &
staying up all night worrying. ;-Þ 90% of abused children are abused by
their own family. the vast majority of the remainder by known
friends/relatives. what you are concerned about exactly i don't know, but it
doesn't mean everyone has to share your concerns (as established already in
this thread fairly thoroughly.)

so, how tall is your son & how tall are your benchtops?
kylie

Ian wrote:
"Clisby" wrote in message
...


Ian wrote:

"Nan" wrote in message
news

Ime, 8 year olds just aren't that much work physically. I know it's
always a ymmv thing, but my ds just wasn't a lot of work.
By the time he was 8, he was getting himself up for school and getting
his own breakfast, dressed, and down to the bus stop. All without
waking me up, as he wanted me to be able to sleep, the darling that he
was :-)


I am sorry, but I think this quite irresponsible of you in this day and

age.

An 8 yr old walking themselves to the bus stop? Are you crazy? We walk

DS to

school as it is only 5 minutes, but there is no way in hell I would let

him

go anywhere alone. He does go and play outside with his friends, but he
always has to stay with someone else. If no one else is out he has to

come

in.

No, she isn't crazy. IME, this is what people let 8-year-olds do. I
live in intown Atlanta, and I've let my older child outside to play by
herself since she was about 4 (she's 7.5 now). She doesn't walk to
school, because she goes to private school a couple of miles away, but
if she went to the public school 2 blocks away, she'd be walking (by
herself).

Clisby



Aren't you worried about danger? There have been 3 sexual assaults on
children in the local park in the past 6 months.and we live in a pretty
quite area. I don't see 8 year olds walking to school here alone at all. At
my sons school we are not allowed to leave them in the school grounds
unsupervised before school. We have had letters home about it as parents
have been dropping their kids off at 8.45. Up until they are 10, the school
does not allow children to go home alone without an adult or an older
sibling.



No, if I thought it was that dangerous I wouldn't live here.
Incidentally, IMO, there's a big difference between letting an 8 year
old go alone to a park and letting an 8 year old walk down a residential
street, at a time of day when plenty of people are going to be out and
about.

Realistically, the greatest danger my child faces is when she gets in a
car with me or her father.

Do you mean you have to take your child to school and hang around the
school grounds with him until school starts? *That* sounds weird to me.

I wouldn't let my child walk to school at age 8 if she'd have to walk
through a deserted area, or cross busy streets, but that wouldn't be the
case if she went to our neighborhood school.

Clisby

"Clisby" wrote in message
...
No, if I thought it was that dangerous I wouldn't live here.
Incidentally, IMO, there's a big difference between letting an 8 year
old go alone to a park and letting an 8 year old walk down a residential
street, at a time of day when plenty of people are going to be out and
about.

Maybe its different where you live, but here thats just doesnt happen. I see
kids that age walking in 2 and 3s, but never alone.

Realistically, the greatest danger my child faces is when she gets in a
car with me or her father.

Do you mean you have to take your child to school and hang around the
school grounds with him until school starts? *That* sounds weird to me.

Yes it is the school policy. Pretty much standard for schools here in
Scotland.

I wouldn't let my child walk to school at age 8 if she'd have to walk
through a deserted area, or cross busy streets, but that wouldn't be the
case if she went to our neighborhood school.

I think social services would be called in if you did that over here, even
if there were no roads to cross. I am serious. I have NEVER seen a child
under 10 walking unaccompanied to school, it just isn't done.

I remember a report in the local paper a few months back. A 9 year old went
missing on the way to school. She was safe, just at a friends house, but the
parents were hauled up in front of social services for letting a child that
age walk to school alone.

In ,
Ian wrote:

* Ime, 8 year olds just aren't that much work physically. I know it's
* always a ymmv thing, but my ds just wasn't a lot of work.
* By the time he was 8, he was getting himself up for school and getting
* his own breakfast, dressed, and down to the bus stop. All without
* waking me up, as he wanted me to be able to sleep, the darling that he
* was :-)
*
*I am sorry, but I think this quite irresponsible of you in this day and age.
*An 8 yr old walking themselves to the bus stop? Are you crazy? We walk DS to

I think you are either sadly ignorant of the fact that there are people
and places in the world unlike those you see every day, or you're just
being deliberately difficult.

In my neighborhood, FIVE year olds walk to their bus stop alone, because
you can see the bus stop from your front door and you are only about 10 to
20 yards away from the bus stop if you stand on your front step - because
the bus will stop in front of your house, or in front of your neighbor's
house, depending, but rarely will the bus stop further than one house
away.

In a friend's neighborhood, the bus stops only on two or three corners in
a much larger area, but still most kids walk without their parents to the
stop. My friend's kid (age 7) walks with the boy next door (age 9). There
is a neighborhood mom who is at the stop from 15 minutes before scheduled
pickup until the bus leaves, too. The neighborhood moms take turns doing
that.

-h.

--
hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net
"uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large