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#1
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IQ and what it means in adulthood
Does anyone know of any good articles/studies on how well IQ scores in
childhood correlate with success in adulthood, given all the inherent inaccuracies of the tests? I realise this is a pretty broad topic, but I know there are some well-informed people here, and the subject has come up for discussion on someone's blog so I'm interested in finding out more. All the best, Sarah -- http://www.goodenoughmummy.typepad.com "That which can be destroyed by the truth, should be" - P. C. Hodgell |
#2
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IQ and what it means in adulthood
Does anyone know of any good articles/studies on how well IQ scores in childhood correlate with success in adulthood, given all the inherent inaccuracies of the tests? I realise this is a pretty broad topic, but I know there are some well-informed people here, and the subject has come up for discussion on someone's blog so I'm interested in finding out more. I'd understood that the correlation was no where near what might be hoped for, though of course there is the argument that had the high IQ score been recognised and the child been nurtured correctly then this wouldn't occur. I'm not sure how well the eleven plus was thought to correlate with IQ, but it looks like failing that wasn't a barrier to success for numerous people. I was recognised as having a high IQ, I was given all the opportunitites, but officially I'm a failure, I'm a statistic no one wants to have - but, I chose this outcome, I decided I'd rather be a mother than fight my way in academia and my husband supported me in that. I AM A SUCCESS, just not statistically - not all gifted and talented people want all these things that are defined as success - and people give us a hard time for it, if you go to an ivy league school, the message you are given is it's a waste for you to become a teacher and motherhood his something you consider after you've established your career. Success is acheiving what you want to acheive. Sarah - I think you'd struggle to find data that gave a strong correlation, I suspect there is a weak one, similar to what you get for number of years education completed against income, but I do question whether any of the measurements of success have any real value. Anne |
#3
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IQ and what it means in adulthood
"Anne Rogers" wrote in message . .. Does anyone know of any good articles/studies on how well IQ scores in childhood correlate with success in adulthood, given all the inherent inaccuracies of the tests? I realise this is a pretty broad topic, but I know there are some well-informed people here, and the subject has come up for discussion on someone's blog so I'm interested in finding out more. I'd understood that the correlation was no where near what might be hoped for, though of course there is the argument that had the high IQ score been recognised and the child been nurtured correctly then this wouldn't occur. I'm not sure how well the eleven plus was thought to correlate with IQ, but it looks like failing that wasn't a barrier to success for numerous people. I was recognised as having a high IQ, I was given all the opportunitites, but officially I'm a failure, I'm a statistic no one wants to have - but, I chose this outcome, I decided I'd rather be a mother than fight my way in academia and my husband supported me in that. I AM A SUCCESS, just not statistically - not all gifted and talented people want all these things that are defined as success - and people give us a hard time for it, if you go to an ivy league school, the message you are given is it's a waste for you to become a teacher and motherhood his something you consider after you've established your career. Success is acheiving what you want to acheive. Sarah - I think you'd struggle to find data that gave a strong correlation, I suspect there is a weak one, similar to what you get for number of years education completed against income, but I do question whether any of the measurements of success have any real value. I agree 100%-I'm another high IQ person who would be considered a failure. Throughout life, I loved young children, loved spending time with them, and heard "You're too smart to teach". I finally, in grad school, burned out on my field, and got my teaching license-and loved teaching. Then,I had a baby, and have focused most of my life on teaching one child-mine, although I do keep my adjunct status at the university by teaching some demonstration classes (which also fulfills my "kid fix" needs). My totally uninformed guess is that you'll probably find more "successes" in the second band of IQ-the high achievers for whom things were easy in school, but who weren't "out there" to the point of being misfits. Most of the people I know who were the super high IQ kids who never quite fit in at school intellectually learned how to find their own way and provide their own intellectual stimulation and education early on, and in adulthood tend to have followed a road to what they love and enjoy, not what is most publically or financially viable. I know a lot of high IQ former "nerds" who excelled in college and grad school who are now SAHMs, playgroup leaders, La Leche leaders, and teachers. On the male side, a lot of them seem to have drifted into positions where they can do what they want, but which may or may not ever be noticed. They don't want to be the CTO of a company-they want to be the researcher who tries out new products or troubleshoots the hard problems, then drifts back into obscurity. And in general, these people are happier than those who have made more of a success as the world sees it. Anne |
#4
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IQ and what it means in adulthood
In article , Donna Metler says...
"Anne Rogers" wrote in message ... Does anyone know of any good articles/studies on how well IQ scores in childhood correlate with success in adulthood, given all the inherent inaccuracies of the tests? I realise this is a pretty broad topic, but I know there are some well-informed people here, and the subject has come up for discussion on someone's blog so I'm interested in finding out more. I'd understood that the correlation was no where near what might be hoped for, though of course there is the argument that had the high IQ score been recognised and the child been nurtured correctly then this wouldn't occur. I'm not sure how well the eleven plus was thought to correlate with IQ, but it looks like failing that wasn't a barrier to success for numerous people. I was recognised as having a high IQ, I was given all the opportunitites, but officially I'm a failure, I'm a statistic no one wants to have - but, I chose this outcome, I decided I'd rather be a mother than fight my way in academia and my husband supported me in that. I AM A SUCCESS, just not statistically - not all gifted and talented people want all these things that are defined as success - and people give us a hard time for it, if you go to an ivy league school, the message you are given is it's a waste for you to become a teacher and motherhood his something you consider after you've established your career. Success is acheiving what you want to acheive. Sarah - I think you'd struggle to find data that gave a strong correlation, I suspect there is a weak one, similar to what you get for number of years education completed against income, but I do question whether any of the measurements of success have any real value. I agree 100%-I'm another high IQ person who would be considered a failure. Throughout life, I loved young children, loved spending time with them, and heard "You're too smart to teach". I finally, in grad school, burned out on my field, and got my teaching license-and loved teaching. Then,I had a baby, and have focused most of my life on teaching one child-mine, although I do keep my adjunct status at the university by teaching some demonstration classes (which also fulfills my "kid fix" needs). My totally uninformed guess is that you'll probably find more "successes" in the second band of IQ-the high achievers for whom things were easy in school, but who weren't "out there" to the point of being misfits. Most of the people I know who were the super high IQ kids who never quite fit in at school intellectually learned how to find their own way and provide their own intellectual stimulation and education early on, and in adulthood tend to have followed a road to what they love and enjoy, not what is most publically or financially viable. I know a lot of high IQ former "nerds" who excelled in college and grad school who are now SAHMs, playgroup leaders, La Leche leaders, and teachers. On the male side, a lot of them seem to have drifted into positions where they can do what they want, but which may or may not ever be noticed. They don't want to be the CTO of a company-they want to be the researcher who tries out new products or troubleshoots the hard problems, then drifts back into obscurity. And in general, these people are happier than those who have made more of a success as the world sees it. Exactly. I've seen stats saying that, after a certain point, IQ correlates with less success, in articles with all kinds of conjecture about how perhaps expectations are too high, burnout, not socially adjusted, or "EQ" ("emotional quotient") may tend to be low, yadda yadda. I've always thought that being smart to the degree of ignoring social conventions had more to do with that. Like the math whiz who works as a school custodian, submitting papers to mathematical journals (may be apocryphal story though ...). He's figure out how to do exactly what he wants, away from academic and other pressures, and considers his other needs minimal and meets those. That's success. Banty |
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IQ and what it means in adulthood
Banty wrote:
I've always thought that being smart to the degree of ignoring social conventions had more to do with that. Like the math whiz who works as a school custodian, submitting papers to mathematical journals (may be apocryphal story though ...). Heh - I thought that was the plot of 'Good Will Hunting'? ;-) Anyway, it would probably help if I gave the context here - the debate was about the studies showing a correlation between breastfeeding and increased IQ, and - if that association is real and not due to a confounder - what it means in practice. I must say I was never terribly impressed by the kind of numbers I was hearing - in the studies being discussed, the average difference was seven IQ points, which just didn't really sound like that much in practice to me. But the question came up, and it got me wondering whether I was right about that or not. All the best, Sarah -- http://www.goodenoughmummy.typepad.com "That which can be destroyed by the truth, should be" - P. C. Hodgell |
#6
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IQ and what it means in adulthood
Sarah Vaughan wrote:
Banty wrote: I've always thought that being smart to the degree of ignoring social conventions had more to do with that. Like the math whiz who works as a school custodian, submitting papers to mathematical journals (may be apocryphal story though ...). Heh - I thought that was the plot of 'Good Will Hunting'? ;-) Anyway, it would probably help if I gave the context here - the debate was about the studies showing a correlation between breastfeeding and increased IQ, and - if that association is real and not due to a confounder - what it means in practice. I must say I was never terribly impressed by the kind of numbers I was hearing - in the studies being discussed, the average difference was seven IQ points, which just didn't really sound like that much in practice to me. But the question came up, and it got me wondering whether I was right about that or not. The studies on IQ and "success" are very mixed, and depend a lot of what you mean by "success." I think the important part about the breastfeeding studies is not so much whether it will make a difference between becoming a lawyer vs. some other job seen as "less successful," but that it indicates an effect on brain development that may have other implications. Taken together, my impression of the literature on the benefits of breastfeeding is that it seems to say that while the differences aren't huge, they argue for the potential for a rather significant effect at the margins--the kids who are at risk of assorted issues and might otherwise have noticeable deficits if not for the little bump from breastfeeding. Best wishes, Ericka |
#7
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IQ and what it means in adulthood
In article , Sarah Vaughan says...
Banty wrote: I've always thought that being smart to the degree of ignoring social conventions had more to do with that. Like the math whiz who works as a school custodian, submitting papers to mathematical journals (may be apocryphal story though ...). Heh - I thought that was the plot of 'Good Will Hunting'? ;-) Yeah - but I heard of that before 'Good Will Hunting', and it was an older person who had made his whole life that way.. Banty |
#8
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IQ and what it means in adulthood
In article ,
Sarah Vaughan wrote: Anyway, it would probably help if I gave the context here - the debate was about the studies showing a correlation between breastfeeding and increased IQ, and - if that association is real and not due to a confounder - what it means in practice. I must say I was never terribly impressed by the kind of numbers I was hearing - in the studies being discussed, the average difference was seven IQ points, which just didn't really sound like that much in practice to me. From what I remember, all the obvious confounders were removed, and we are left with a small but measurable difference of nearly half a standard deviation. No, it's not a lot, and it won't turn anyone's little Gumby into Einstein. My suspicion is that the difference is related to the implications of BFing for health -- infections probably do have a slight effect on brain development in the first 6mo, and the risk of infection is lowered when a child is BF. But it's been a while since I read about that study. -- Chookie -- Sydney, Australia (Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply) http://chookiesbackyard.blogspot.com/ |
#9
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IQ and what it means in adulthood
Sarah Vaughan wrote:
Banty wrote: I've always thought that being smart to the degree of ignoring social conventions had more to do with that. Like the math whiz who works as a school custodian, submitting papers to mathematical journals (may be apocryphal story though ...). Heh - I thought that was the plot of 'Good Will Hunting'? ;-) Anyway, it would probably help if I gave the context here - the debate was about the studies showing a correlation between breastfeeding and increased IQ, and - if that association is real and not due to a confounder - what it means in practice. I must say I was never terribly impressed by the kind of numbers I was hearing - in the studies being discussed, the average difference was seven IQ points, which just didn't really sound like that much in practice to me. But the question came up, and it got me wondering whether I was right about that or not. By practising, you can increase your IQ score in tests by about 5 points (or so I've read). The difference between average score and (average plus seven) score is probably significant, compared to the difference between high score and (high plus seven) score. -- Penny Gaines UK mum to three |
#10
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IQ and what it means in adulthood
On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 00:02:17 +0000, Sarah Vaughan
wrote: I've always thought that being smart to the degree of ignoring social conventions had more to do with that. Like the math whiz who works as a school custodian, submitting papers to mathematical journals (may be apocryphal story though ...). Heh - I thought that was the plot of 'Good Will Hunting'? ;-) I do wonder if some of that legend came from the career of George Bernard Dantzig. He never worked as a custodian, but.... http://www2.informs.org/History/dant..._interview.htm The son of a mathematician and the "Father of Linear Programming" — not to mention the inventor of the simplex method and one of the most revered figures in the history of operations research — Dantzig nearly flunked out of his ninth-grade algebra class. Fortunately for the O.R. community, Dantzig's math skills improved. Dantzig went on to earn an A.B. degree in mathematics and physics from the University of Maryland (where his father taught mathematics), an M.A. in mathematics from the University of Michigan and a Ph.D. in mathematics from the University of California-Berkeley in 1946. It was while a grad student at Berkeley in the 1940s that Dantzig displayed the unique brand of genius that would eventually elevate him to almost mythical status in the O.R. community. Dantzig, believing he was working on a couple of "homework" assignments, instead solved two famous "unsolvable" problems that had stumped generations of statisticians. A legend was born. -- Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. The Outer Limits |
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