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| U.N. rules Canada should ban spanking



 
 
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  #21  
Old October 11th 03, 05:48 PM
Kane
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default U.N. rules Canada should ban spanking

On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 23:44:10 -0500, Jon Houts
wrote:


On 10 Oct 2003, Kane wrote:

"Michael S. Morris" wrote


Staking "out a position" differs from an "argument" how?


Much as "debate" differs from "fight," I suspect.

I am especially
embarassed when,


Heaven'stobetsyIshouldhopeso.

driving around this evening,


How many wrecks will it take for you to stop that day dreaming

while
you
drive? Or should we spank you?


Is this the level of debate that can be expected by those who wish to
debate you?


Is this the level we can expect from you, avoider?

Now, the "science" of
brain scans or no,


Why do I get the feeling you don't really want to know what the

brain
scan studies show?

One of the most interesting to me was the one that showed that in
children who
had experienced abuse that section of the brain that is the locus

for
indications of moral choices is black...dead...no neurons firing.
Thought
provoking and immediately jumped on by the word twisters with
"spanking isn't
abuse."


It's all fine and dandy for you to consider spanking to be abuse,


Oh, it's considerably more than fine and dandy.

but,but...if the researchers didn't include the type/frequency of

spanking
that most children receive to be abuse,


I didn't say the researchers discriminated between abuse and spanking.
I suspect they confined themselves to victims of what would legally be
termed abuse...which would preclude spanking.

Do you demand that all uses of electricity be considered when one use
is being examined?

then it's just downright dishonest
for you to say that what these researchers concluded has anything to

do
with spanking.


No, you are now lying, as in attempting to deceive by making a claim
about me you cannot prove. That I'm being dishonest. Honesty has
nothing to do with my exploring possible connections between causes
and effects. If you think that is dishonest then I guess science, to
you, is dishonest.

However, I presume it's yet another of your attempts to divert.

It isn't dishonest of me to consider the link between abuse and
spanking nor is it dishonest of me to consider the state of the world
and its societies as possibly being linked to the use of pain and
humiliation in parenting.

You may not LIKE it, my examining and questioning, but there is
nothing dishonest about it.

If you think so I'm sure you can point out what is dishonest on my
part by showing us the truth you think I am not showing.

No?

Kane
  #22  
Old October 11th 03, 06:31 PM
Ray Drouillard
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default | U.N. rules Canada should ban spanking


"Greg Hanson" wrote in message
om...
Why would the UN single out Canada as needing a ban on spanking?
As physical discipline goes, half the world is ten times worse!
Caning and strapping are still used in MANY places.


Very good question, actually.

It looks like Canada is not being singled out. According to the
article, every country that signed that treaty is being given the same
recommendation.




No wonder they can't act to prevent real death,
rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

Just like Child Protection agencies.


The ineffectiveness of the UN could be the subject of a completely new
debate.



Ray



  #23  
Old October 11th 03, 06:58 PM
Kane
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default U.N. rules Canada should ban spanking

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 13:31:01 -0400, "Ray Drouillard"
wrote:


"Greg Hanson" wrote in message
. com...
Why would the UN single out Canada as needing a ban on spanking?
As physical discipline goes, half the world is ten times worse!
Caning and strapping are still used in MANY places.


Very good question, actually.

It looks like Canada is not being singled out. According to the
article, every country that signed that treaty is being given the

same
recommendation.




No wonder they can't act to prevent real death,
rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

Just like Child Protection agencies.


The ineffectiveness of the UN could be the subject of a completely

new
debate.


Classic understatement. You Canadian?

The UN (though not some of its subordinate organizations) are the
worst thing that has ever happened to this planet and its peoples.

Conditions around the world are spiralling downward at the instigation
and cultivation of this organization.


Ray


Kane
  #24  
Old October 11th 03, 07:13 PM
Kane
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default U.N. rules Canada should ban spanking

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 12:52:04 -0400, "Ray Drouillard"
wrote:


"Kane" wrote in message
. com...

[...]

----- Original Message -----
From: jordan riak
To:
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 1:30 PM
Subject: Bill O'Reilly, well-spanked

....................

"I have some first-hand evidence to support my theory. I routinely
poll each new class of students to find out what percentage were
raised without corporal punishment. I lecture a new group of 20 to

30
adults every three weeks, and have been doing so over the course of
the past four years. In the process of looking for an unspanked
student, I think I know how Diogenes felt holding up his lantern in
the market place at midday in search of an honest man. My polling
results are consistently at, or very near, 0%. If their childhoods
were deficient in any way, it certainly wasn't due to the lack of
spanking.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

My students are inmates in the Pre-Release Program at California

State
Prison Folsom."



Interesting. All of the prisoners that he interviewed were spanked

as
children.

Perhaps he didn't ask the right questions. I'll bet that every one

of
the prisoners that he interviewed also ate bread as children. Maybe
bread is the villain.


Quite possible, if eating bread were painful.

As far as I know bread has not been implicated in reactive
psychological disorders. Spanking has been. What it's implication
amounts to is the question, not wither or not it is implicated.

Nice try Ray. You are still about two hairs short of a toupee.


Ray Drouillard


Peace. Love. Victory.

Kane
  #25  
Old October 11th 03, 07:19 PM
Kane
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default U.N. rules Canada should ban spanking

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 12:34:27 -0500, Jon Houts
wrote:


On Sat, 11 Oct 2003, Ray Drouillard wrote:

Interesting. All of the prisoners that he interviewed were spanked

as
children.

Perhaps he didn't ask the right questions. I'll bet that every one

of
the prisoners that he interviewed also ate bread as children.

Maybe
bread is the villain.


Scary. "Eating bread" is exactly what I was thinking...


You do know, do you not, this little diversion has been fully
exploited in the past and proved to be as limp as a post
orgasmic...well, you know.

As far as my research has taken me I've never once run across any
study to implicate bread as a factor, causal or correlational, in
criminal behavior.

If you know of one, pop it up here.

It would be fascinating.

Unless you stick to those phenomena in folks lives that have to do
with pain and humiliation you are diverting, putting up strawmen to
kick around, throwing red fish at us, and making extremely hasty
generalizations...all serious logical reasoning faults.

You wouldn't want to be guilty of that, now would you, boys?

but,but...


My little 5 horse outboard makes a similar noise. I use Rislone.

Jon


Kane
  #26  
Old October 11th 03, 07:22 PM
Jon Houts
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default U.N. rules Canada should ban spanking


On 11 Oct 2003, Greg Hanson wrote:

Crossposting complaints
1. Most FAQ's imply that TELLING people not to flame is as bad
as flaming itself.


but,but...is it wrong to tell people that telling people not to flame is
bad?

4. Are there technical problems with this thread that cause
fragmentation?


Most likely, a lot of sub-threads have cropped up which weren't
crossposted to all of the groups.


Jon

  #27  
Old October 11th 03, 07:28 PM
Jon Houts
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default U.N. rules Canada should ban spanking


On 11 Oct 2003, Kane wrote:

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003, Ray Drouillard wrote:

Interesting. All of the prisoners that
he interviewed were spanked as children.

Perhaps he didn't ask the right questions.
I'll bet that every one of the prisoners
that he interviewed also ate bread as
children. Maybe bread is the villain.


As far as my research has taken me I've never once run across any
study to implicate bread as a factor, causal or correlational, in
criminal behavior.

If you know of one, pop it up here.


http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/bread.html





but,but...
Jon

  #28  
Old October 11th 03, 07:55 PM
Jon Houts
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default U.N. rules Canada should ban spanking


On 11 Oct 2003, Kane wrote:

Jon Houts wrote:

On 10 Oct 2003, Kane wrote:

"Michael S. Morris" wrote


Now, the "science" of
brain scans or no,

Why do I get the feeling you don't really
want to know what the brain scan studies show?

One of the most interesting to me was the
one that showed that in children who had
experienced abuse that section of the brain
that is the locus for indications of moral
choices is black...dead...no neurons firing.
Thought provoking and immediately jumped on
by the word twisters with "spanking isn't
abuse."


It's all fine and dandy for you to consider
spanking to be abuse, but,but...if the
researchers didn't include the type/frequency
of spanking that most children receive to be
abuse,


I didn't say the researchers discriminated
between abuse and spanking. I suspect they
confined themselves to victims of what would
legally be termed abuse...which would preclude
spanking.


Then why throw that study out as evidence against spanking?

Do you demand that all uses of electricity
be considered when one use is being examined?


Let's run with that "electricity" thing....

If you were to say that blowdryers were deadly, and should be
banned outright, and offered up as proof a study showing that
using blowdryers while taking a bath caused people to electroculte
themselves, I'd call you on that, too.

then it's just downright dishonest for
you to say that what these researchers
concluded has anything to do with spanking.


No, you are now lying, as in attempting to
deceive by making a claim about me you
cannot prove. That I'm being dishonest.


You're trying to use a study on abuse to prove a case about spanking.
That's dishonest.

It isn't dishonest of me to consider the
link between abuse and spanking


Well, that's the missing piece right now, isn't it?

nor is it dishonest of me to consider the
state of the world and its societies as
possibly being linked to the use of pain and
humiliation in parenting.


Let's see. You're saying that spanking causes the problems we see in the
"state of the world and its societies." (let's say A-C) You post
something about a study showing a link between abuse a morality (let's
call that (B-C). What you're missing is something to prove that
spanking, itself, constitutes abuse (A-B). If you use B-C as your sole
proof that A-C, you're being dishonest.


Jon

  #29  
Old October 11th 03, 10:49 PM
Kane
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default U.N. rules Canada should ban spanking

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 13:28:02 -0500, Jon Houts
wrote:


On 11 Oct 2003, Kane wrote:

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003, Ray Drouillard wrote:

Interesting. All of the prisoners that
he interviewed were spanked as children.

Perhaps he didn't ask the right questions.
I'll bet that every one of the prisoners
that he interviewed also ate bread as
children. Maybe bread is the villain.


As far as my research has taken me I've never once run across any
study to implicate bread as a factor, causal or correlational, in
criminal behavior.

If you know of one, pop it up here.


http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/bread.html



Excellent. Nice going. Of course a humourous post of correlation
hardly equates with the serious subject of using pain for teaching.

You have a point...only one of course.




but,but...
Jon


Beansal do that to you.

Kane
  #30  
Old October 11th 03, 11:22 PM
Kane
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default U.N. rules Canada should ban spanking

Jon Houts wrote in message ...
On 11 Oct 2003, Kane wrote:

Jon Houts wrote:

On 10 Oct 2003, Kane wrote:

"Michael S. Morris" wrote


Now, the "science" of
brain scans or no,

Why do I get the feeling you don't really
want to know what the brain scan studies show?

One of the most interesting to me was the
one that showed that in children who had
experienced abuse that section of the brain
that is the locus for indications of moral
choices is black...dead...no neurons firing.
Thought provoking and immediately jumped on
by the word twisters with "spanking isn't
abuse."

It's all fine and dandy for you to consider
spanking to be abuse, but,but...if the
researchers didn't include the type/frequency
of spanking that most children receive to be
abuse,


I didn't say the researchers discriminated
between abuse and spanking. I suspect they
confined themselves to victims of what would
legally be termed abuse...which would preclude
spanking.


Then why throw that study out as evidence against spanking?


I don't recall saying it should be thrown out. In fact it shouldn't
be. Any factors that reduce learning, and brain development deserve
closer scrutiny.

Don't you think?

Do you demand that all uses of electricity
be considered when one use is being examined?


Let's run with that "electricity" thing....

If you were to say that blowdryers were deadly, and should be
banned outright, and offered up as proof a study showing that
using blowdryers while taking a bath caused people to electroculte
themselves, I'd call you on that, too.


So?

I'd still say that the use of blowdryers in the shower were unwise,
just as I say the use of spanking is highly questionable, and possibly
dangerous to humankind.

I'll go you one better. Look at the analogy this way.

The use of spanking, in itself, equates with the use of blowdryers.

The use of spanking on the non-consenting, the child, equates with
using blowdryers in the shower.

then it's just downright dishonest for
you to say that what these researchers
concluded has anything to do with spanking.


No, you are now lying, as in attempting to
deceive by making a claim about me you
cannot prove. That I'm being dishonest.


You're trying to use a study on abuse to prove a case about spanking.
That's dishonest.


Nothing dishonest about it at all. What did I conceal about the study?
Did I pretend it was about spanking?

Do you suppose that the subjects were only abused and never spanked?

Just where is the cutoff between spanking and abuse?

Is it possible that while abuse resulted in blacked out activity,
spanking might not be considered to retard development...a brownout as
it were?

I'm not providing "proof." I'm offering speculation.

The only proof I am absolutely sure of is the thousands of children
I've worked with over a very long lifetime. They showed me daily the
results of pain and humiliation parenting methods. I know spanking,
not legally classifiable abuse, to have been a factor in some chilling
outcomes for children and the people around them as they aged out of
childhood.

I recall one case where a 14 year old got tired of his mother thinking
she could spank him for anything (this is an example of retarded moral
development) who had turned into a major sneak. One day she came for
him with a switch, and he knocked her down, and then brutally raped
her.

Extremely rare of course, but I had the task of rehabilitating this
"child." In searching his background growing up in a little community
I found that two small children in the three years prior to his being
in my care diappeared from that community.

No connection perhaps, but when I looked at that boy, and his
perfectly guileless exterior, and knew what he had done to his mother,
I had my suspicions.

The of pain and humiliation in teaching any one or anything often
turns up such outcomes. Human know to hide it when they are just a few
years old (a screwed up three year old is about the highest age where
the child won't hide the growing savagery), but animals will clearly
reveal the results of being "spanked" and humiliated. Cowering, they
can and do suddenly turn and bite or claw.

It isn't dishonest of me to consider the
link between abuse and spanking


Well, that's the missing piece right now, isn't it?


No, actually it's not. The brain scan studies are one of the areas of
research that may well now be exploring it. On going research isn't
something I've looked at.

Any much research has been done that is as thorough as the research
was into electricity that still hadn't adequately explained it but
electricity was being used based on those incomplete studies.

I think I am perfectly safe in suggesting parents try using gentle
supportive non threatening, non painful, non humiliating methods given
the level of research we have right now. It's far beyond where
electrical research was at the time electricity became a universal
tool in industrial countries.

One of the most interesting things to research, would not be the
connection between spanking and abberent behavior, but non punitive
parenting and the outcomes.

There is a cry that goes up often that it's the non-spanked child that
is the menace to society. I always find it amusing in that people
can't prove it and even when they try close examination shoes they
aren't really talking about the non-spanked child (turns out that they
really mean...not spanked enough...the subject invariably are revealed
as having been spanked some) and certainly not about the non-punished
child.

The latter is well known to me. But not from the professional contact
I've had with children, but rather from the families, more
particularly homeschooling families, that have never used a punishment
regimen for discipline.

As I meet the adults that are the result of such child rearing I'm
stunned by the quality of human it produces. Moral, industrious,
nearly incorruptable, socially conscious, and I don't mind asking them
to let me survey them and study their past and their lives.

Fascinating. Something 40 years ago I wouldn't have believed existed.

You don't really think I come here to Troll do you?

I not only believe in what I claim, I have seen it. Frankly I'd prefer
a world where everyone was like these fascinating people.

And they are rich in diversity. They are all kinds of persons with all
kinds of personalities, but they have those few qualities in common
that I mentioned above.

You don't know any, do you?

nor is it dishonest of me to consider the
state of the world and its societies as
possibly being linked to the use of pain and
humiliation in parenting.


Let's see. You're saying that spanking causes the problems we see in the
"state of the world and its societies." (let's say A-C)


That is correct. You are of course attempting to reframe my statement
into something I did not say.

I said, and you conveniently and dishonestly left out of your
"question," the words from my statement, "consider," and "possibly."

I consider many factors. I consider parenting practices, which are
assumed to be applied to create a particular kind of human being, a
very likely culprit.

You post
something about a study showing a link between abuse a morality (let's
call that (B-C). What you're missing is something to prove that
spanking, itself, constitutes abuse (A-B). If you use B-C as your sole
proof that A-C, you're being dishonest.


You are being dishonest when you say I am using any one thing as sole
proof.

I've not done that. I've talked, in these few short posts, of many
things that provide support (I've not once used the term "proof" or
"proved" or "proven" intentionally. And if you can find it I will
retract it.)

I cannot say that I have proof that the current economic policies of
GW Bush are threatening the economy of the middle and lower income
people, but I feel confident that what I do see is adequate for me to
strongly suggest other policies be explored....like voting their butts
out and getting a gag Democrat administration for a time.

I offer the thought that non-punitive parenting (that would rule out
spanking) produces some very admirable results and few if any unwanted
side effects.

If you haven't tried it, you might try not knocking it.

I tried it. The more I tried it the better life became for my children
and myself. And the more of the admired and desired traits I want in
human beings surfaced and were cultivated...almost without input from
me, suggesting yet another startling possibility...that children are
not born into evil ways.

They learn then at the hands of parents who consider themselves good,
among other sources.

So, Jon. Have you raised a child with a mind to viewing all behaviors
as developmental exploritory events for children, and wherein you
would guide gentle to your desired results instead of pound their
butts?

I have. I like the results. My 43 and 38 year old children are proof
enough to me, and the children of other parents I know who adult
children turned out very much the same, morally, ethically,
intelligently, industriously, responsibly.

I'd like other folks to think and take a look at the possibility I'm
right.

You may not wish to. You may prefer to avoid looking at this
possibility of my correctness in my speculation of goodness coming out
of gentleness by arguing points of logic with me on subjects you make
up by presuming I'm saying something I'm not, even changing my words
to make YOUR presentation.

I find you silly. And quite dishonest.

Jon


but-but.

Kane
 




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