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10 ways to be a better father



 
 
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  #11  
Old November 20th 03, 02:57 AM
toto
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Default 10 ways to be a better father

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 17:53:45 -0700, Bob wrote:

toto wrote:
On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 17:22:26 -0500, Kathy Cole
wrote:


I hope there's a middle ground for most people, where non-custodial
parents (or joint-custodial parents in a disagreement over parenting
time, which was the root of my example above) can get to some resolution
other than fighting or walking away, but repetetive appearances in
family court to ask for aid in enforcing orders is neither an easy nor a
cheap process, and it's very wearing.



Why isn't there an arbitration process that can be used instead of
court appearances?
Dorothy



They ought to just give up violating the child's rights by forcing
custody to either parent.

Bob

The thing is that the system *is* changing. I am sorry that
individual men were harmed, but both men and women of good
will have worked to change the custody laws. It is a slow process
and that is never easy for those in the middle of it, but.

http://members.tripod.com/~mdcrc/spgrowth.html

Equal shared parenting now accounts for more than
20% of post-divorce living arrangements for children.
Almost unheard of in 1970, shared parenting has grown
at an extraordinary rate. Nationwide, equal shared
parenting is selected by divorced families in increasing
numbers each year. In some states, it has become the
predominant form of child custody after divorce,
accounting for nearly half of child custody awards.

The rapid growth of shared parenting means that more
and more children are being raised by two parents. The
active involvement of both parents has been shown to
benefit children regardless of their parents' marital
situation. In addition, new research has shown that
higher levels of shared parenting are linked with lower
levels of divorce. In other words, states that have more
shared parenting tend to have lower divorce rates.

It is still too low, but it is growing and at a relatively
high rate and with much success.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits
  #12  
Old November 20th 03, 03:00 AM
toto
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Default 10 ways to be a better father

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 17:53:45 -0700, Bob wrote:

They ought to just give up violating the child's rights by forcing
custody to either parent.


Well, I agree with that and the research on joint custody and shared
parenting supports that it is best for the children. But note the
caveat.

http://members.tripod.com/~mdcrc/jcbib.html

Research on Shared Parenting and Joint Custody

Joint custody and shared parenting (i.e., joint physical
and legal custody) have been studied for more than a
quarter-century, with the majority of studies indicating
significant benefits for children. About a third of
existing studies show no difference between joint and
sole custody for children's adjustment to divorce.

************************************************** ***********
The critical factor appears to be conflict between parents.

************************************************** ************

When parents cooperate and minimize conflict, children
do better with shared parenting/joint physical custody. If
there is significant conflict between parents, however,
shared parenting provides no benefits and children do
no better (and no worse) than they do in sole custody.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits
  #13  
Old November 20th 03, 04:24 AM
Bob
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Default 10 ways to be a better father

toto wrote:
On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 17:53:45 -0700, Bob wrote:


toto wrote:

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 17:22:26 -0500, Kathy Cole
wrote:



I hope there's a middle ground for most people, where non-custodial
parents (or joint-custodial parents in a disagreement over parenting
time, which was the root of my example above) can get to some resolution
other than fighting or walking away, but repetetive appearances in
family court to ask for aid in enforcing orders is neither an easy nor a
cheap process, and it's very wearing.


Why isn't there an arbitration process that can be used instead of
court appearances?
Dorothy



They ought to just give up violating the child's rights by forcing
custody to either parent.


The thing is that the system *is* changing. I am sorry that
individual men were harmed, but both men and women of good
will have worked to change the custody laws. It is a slow process
and that is never easy for those in the middle of it, but.


There is no justification for illegal discrimination to continue. The
excuse that it is a "slow" process is all too often used to justify
ruining a man's family. There is no excuse for that. There is no
excuse for those who accept misandry and anti-men injustice as reasonable.

In California over the past few years NOW California spent $500,000 of
the VAWA act money lobbying against changes that allow men joint custody
in 15% of cases. There is no excuse for that level of misandry or for
the tax supported funding of hate.

Bob


http://members.tripod.com/~mdcrc/spgrowth.html

Equal shared parenting now accounts for more than
20% of post-divorce living arrangements for children.
Almost unheard of in 1970, shared parenting has grown
at an extraordinary rate. Nationwide, equal shared
parenting is selected by divorced families in increasing
numbers each year. In some states, it has become the
predominant form of child custody after divorce,
accounting for nearly half of child custody awards.

The rapid growth of shared parenting means that more
and more children are being raised by two parents. The
active involvement of both parents has been shown to
benefit children regardless of their parents' marital
situation. In addition, new research has shown that
higher levels of shared parenting are linked with lower
levels of divorce. In other words, states that have more
shared parenting tend to have lower divorce rates.

It is still too low, but it is growing and at a relatively
high rate and with much success.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits



  #14  
Old November 20th 03, 05:37 AM
Kathy Cole
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Default 10 ways to be a better father

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 18:29:59 -0600, toto wrote:

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 17:22:26 -0500, Kathy Cole
wrote:

I hope there's a middle ground for most people, where non-custodial
parents (or joint-custodial parents in a disagreement over parenting
time, which was the root of my example above) can get to some resolution
other than fighting or walking away, but repetetive appearances in
family court to ask for aid in enforcing orders is neither an easy nor a
cheap process, and it's very wearing.


Why isn't there an arbitration process that can be used instead of
court appearances?


Depends on the country, and province/state and their laws. I believe
mediation is available but not mandatory here; it may be mandatory prior
to seeing a judge in other states.
  #15  
Old November 20th 03, 05:55 AM
Andre Lieven
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Default 10 ways to be a better father

dragonlady ) writes:
In article ,
(Andre Lieven) wrote:

dragonlady ) writes:
In article ,


How do you know what I have and have not gotten involved in supporting
and protesting?


Call it a judicious use of " house odds ".


In other words, your own bigotry about women.


LOL ! So, reading Consumers Report on new car buying, when one is
about to buy, is " bigotry against car makers " ?

You *are* funny. Read " Lip Service; The Turth About Women's Darker
Side In LOve Sex And Friendship ", by Kate Fillion.

You assume you know what I have and have not done based
on no information whatsoever, other than that I am a woman and say
I support equality.


LOL. You just contradicted yourself, there, little lady. Try again.


How did I contradict myself, little man?


" no information, *other than... "

The former is directly contradicted by the latter.

Take another ESL course, and... pass it this time.

Your *posted words* were what led me to my conclusion.

It appears... I was quite right. laughs

Some of those things I've protested, some I have not. I don't agree
with you 100% -- that does not make me a man hater, it means I think you
are sometimes wrong.


LOL. Yet, you CAN'T show how.


Why should I have to? You haven't gone into details about how you have
supported or opposed various causes. Isn't it enough that I tell you I
have?


Nope.

Or are you saying that I can't show how I think you are wrong about some
things? Again, I'm not particularly interested in doing that.


Your laziness is your own problem...

Got it.

Some women are jerks, some men are
jerks, and MY experience is that they come in about equal numbers --

" The plural of 'anecdote' is NOT 'citation'. "...

Exactly why I said "in MY experience" --


Since the TOPIC *wansn't* about *you*, then this was merly narcissistic
irrelevence on your part. More proof that... I was right about you.


You frequently are speaking from your own experience. What do you call
that?


My experience greatly includes DATA.... Look it up.

" House odds "...

it isn't evidence or
statistical or anything else, only speaking from my own experience. I
can do that, can't I?


Sure. And, others can bring attention to the narcissism that it is.


No, speaking from your own experience is called "authenticity".


Wrong.

Or, is free speech only for *you* ?


Have I ever suggested that you -- or anyone else -- should not speak?


You implied it, yes. By ASSuming that replies to your narcissism
are not to be expected.

Certainly, I am always interested in hearing what other people's
experiences have been.


Can't prove it so far...

laughs

but I find most people to be rather likeable. I haven't commented upon
divorce or child custody -- I've seen some great, healthy divorces where
both parents are fully involved in their kids lives and continue to
treat their ex's with respect, and some where one parent or the other
(or both!) ought to be flogged for what they do to their kids and their
ex's. I've seen court cases that leave me, at best, puzzled -- I can't
imagine WHAT the judge was thinking, and I have not expressed any
opinion one way or the other about the individuals who have posted
here, nor do I intend to.

How on earth can you call this hostile or hateful to men?

You can have equality of opportunity or equality of *result*. The
demand by women and women's groups for the latter IS anti men
hatred.

But, let some Festering Femmeroids say it in their own words...

And you assume I agree with everything you've cited (again, I might add
-- you already put all this stuff on this thread once)? Why? Based on
what evidence?


" House odds ". Plus, your *false claims* that men and women destroy
marriages at comparable rates, when... thats proven not true.

IOW, you were either *ignorant* or a *liar*. Which was it ?


Actually, *I* never said that. I've never said anything about the
percentages of marriages destroyed by men vs. women.


No, you *weren't that honest*. You merely attempted to equate 70-91%
with 9-30%.

People who passed grade two wouldn't be that... arithmetically
ignorant.

Neither "ignorant"
nor "lie", just silent on this topic and listening to others, since it
is not something that I have looked into much. I think divorce is too
common -- whoever initiates it, for whatever reason.


There you go again, equating the unequatable...

Perhaps you can't tell women apart?


Less likely then your inability to distinguish between 70-91% and
9-30%...

Some of the women you quote are, in my opinion, and in the opinion of
many other women of my acquaintance, idiots. So what?


The point is that many women believe what those women said. And,
if thats women saying insane thinigs, then it's your job, as another
woman, to publically speak out against them, rather than try to
hand wave them away. As... you just did.

Busted...


No, I frequently speak out against some of those things. I don't try to
hand wave them away. I object -- loudly.


As I said, can't prove it by what you posted...

Do you treat ALL women like this, assuming you know what we think based
on nothing more than your own prejudice?


Why, do you claim to BE " all women " ?


No, just wondering if there are any women who you are capable of hearing
when they talk.


Plenty. The common point with them: None are misandristic *sexists*.

Look up Jayne K, over here. We get along just fine, even though we
hold different theological views.

Your anger and bitterness seem to have clogged your ears.


yawn Projection. Maybe a theatre can hire you...

I am not the person you think I am -- but you don't seem capable of
seeing who and what I really am.


Just reading your *posted words*, toots.

If you wrrote poorly, thats also not my problem...

You tell me what I believe, I tell you you are wrong, that I don't
believe those things at all -- and you call me insulting names and laugh
at me.


Definition: " Insult: to accurately describe a Feminist's stated
views... "

And...

" MIsogynist: A man who is *winning* an argument with a Feminist. "

So I ask again -- have you any interest at all in who or what I really
am? Or is your mind so made up that you are unwilling to be confused
by facts?


Show any sign that you are happy to not penalise men for *women's
frauds*, and we might have somehting to talk about...

But, as long as you play the direct Festering Femmeroid card of
" Always blame the nearest *man* ", well, then that will accurately
label you as a misandrist.

By your own words. Deal with it.

" You're a liberated woman. Learn to *lose*. " Danny Devito,
" Otther People's Money. "

Andre
--
" I'm a man... But, I can change... If I have to... I guess. "
The Man Prayer, Red Green.
  #16  
Old November 20th 03, 04:27 PM
dragonlady
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Posts: n/a
Default 10 ways to be a better father

In article ,
(Andre Lieven) wrote:

dragonlady ) writes:
In article ,
(Andre Lieven) wrote:

dragonlady ) writes:
In article ,


How do you know what I have and have not gotten involved in supporting
and protesting?

Call it a judicious use of " house odds ".


In other words, your own bigotry about women.


LOL ! So, reading Consumers Report on new car buying, when one is
about to buy, is " bigotry against car makers " ?


No -- but reading that the "average gas mileage is 20 MPG" and then
assuming that every car gives 20 MPG would be about as stupid as
assuming that what you read about "most women" is true of any individual
woman. I am an individual, not some sort of bizarre representation of
every woman. I speak only for myself.



Have I ever suggested that you -- or anyone else -- should not speak?


You implied it, yes. By ASSuming that replies to your narcissism
are not to be expected.


I have not suggested I don't espect responses. I keep reading yours,
don't I?

Certainly, I am always interested in hearing what other people's
experiences have been.


Can't prove it so far...


I'm still listening . . .



" House odds ". Plus, your *false claims* that men and women destroy
marriages at comparable rates, when... thats proven not true.

IOW, you were either *ignorant* or a *liar*. Which was it ?


Actually, *I* never said that. I've never said anything about the
percentages of marriages destroyed by men vs. women.


No, you *weren't that honest*. You merely attempted to equate 70-91%
with 9-30%.


No, I didn't. Ever. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking
about. I am NOT the person who has been arguing with you about who is
responsible for marriages breaking up. It is not a discussion which I
have joined. You are pulling this out of thin air -- or perhaps just
assuming, again, that women are all interchangable -- do you assume we
are each responsible for what every other woman has said, or that we all
agree with each other?



People who passed grade two wouldn't be that... arithmetically
ignorant.

Neither "ignorant"
nor "lie", just silent on this topic and listening to others, since it
is not something that I have looked into much. I think divorce is too
common -- whoever initiates it, for whatever reason.


There you go again, equating the unequatable...


Saying divorce is too common equates what with what? Divorce is not a
good thing.



No, just wondering if there are any women who you are capable of hearing
when they talk.


Plenty. The common point with them: None are misandristic *sexists*.

Look up Jayne K, over here. We get along just fine, even though we
hold different theological views.


So, the only woman who you can get along with is the one who said her
husband is the spiritual head of her household, the way God intended.

I think YOUR claims to want equality are hereby unveiled for what they
really are.



" MIsogynist: A man who is *winning* an argument with a Feminist. "



Do you really think that your willingness to be insulting means you are
"winning" an argument here?

THAT'S funny.

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

  #17  
Old November 20th 03, 06:49 PM
Penny Gaines
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Posts: n/a
Default 10 ways to be a better father

Bob wrote in :

[snip]
What system would you like to see in place of child support? Maybe
there could be an account held by a third party.


No Toots, its not about the money. Get that "an account" out of your
head. Forcing men to pay women is WRONG. Forcing men to pay women is
NOT supporting a child. You support a child by putting out a plate at
dinner, providing shelter and clothing, etc. NOT by paying women.

[snip]

I've sussed it! What Bob thinks ought to happen is that the non-custodial
parent supports the child by turning up at the house where they lived, with
the food for their supper. That way they a) support the child and
b) don't pay the other parent anything.

PS Note lack of crosspost.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three
  #18  
Old November 20th 03, 07:29 PM
Banty
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Default 10 ways to be a better father

In article , Nan says...

On 20 Nov 2003 09:58:46 -0800, Banty wrote:

In article , Nan says...

On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 10:31:52 -0700, Bob wrote:

Nan wrote:
Every child as a right to *a* father. The bio father isn't
necessarily the best one for the job, just because he's the bio-dad.
How hard is it for you to understand that having a consistent, loving
parent in the child's life is the important issue??

No babe.

Continued insults do nothing to endear anyone to your cause.

Men are not interchangeable toys like your hair curlers.

Again, continued insults do nothing to endear anyone to your cause.


He doesn't think he has to endear anyone to his cause. He has stated that his
cause can be brought about by violence.

Banty


*crossposting snipped due to Bob-inspired headache*

Typical response from a man that is so filled with hatred.

Nan


I'd lay odds that he's one of the (few!) men who lost both physical and legal
custody due to violent behavior. Which would be why he's speaking in terms of
absolute fathers' rights - that is, no matter what. Just a guess...

Banty

  #19  
Old November 20th 03, 10:23 PM
toto
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default 10 ways to be a better father

On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 17:49:22 +0000, Penny Gaines
wrote:

Bob wrote in :

[snip]
What system would you like to see in place of child support? Maybe
there could be an account held by a third party.


No Toots, its not about the money. Get that "an account" out of your
head. Forcing men to pay women is WRONG. Forcing men to pay women is
NOT supporting a child. You support a child by putting out a plate at
dinner, providing shelter and clothing, etc. NOT by paying women.

[snip]

I've sussed it! What Bob thinks ought to happen is that the non-custodial
parent supports the child by turning up at the house where they lived, with
the food for their supper. That way they a) support the child and
b) don't pay the other parent anything.

PS Note lack of crosspost.


Note, Bob's *only* solution is that the parent who has physical
custody and that should be the man only, is the one who supports
the child by buying clothing, sheltering the child and giving the
child food.

He would then, I expect, not allow the mother any contact with
her child either because that is what his ex did to him and he
needs to revenge himself on her by taking his revenge on all
women who divorce other men.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits
  #20  
Old November 20th 03, 11:28 PM
toto
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default 10 ways to be a better father

On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 18:19:01 GMT, dragonlady
wrote:

--My genuine hope that you do NOT represent most of the men working on
behalf of men's rights in child custody and support cases; it is a
worthy cause, and I fear that if folks like you are the primary torch
carriers, it will lose.


Oh, Bob's not half bad. You should meet John Knight.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits
 




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