about "bitching"

'at odds about discipline' was a pretty good thread, and Vickie seems
to be on a better track, but there is this issue about BITCHING that I
find interesting. Lots of different opinions.
A dad made the point that when a woman appeals to her husband for
help with discipline, then she should accept his solution. If she
doesn't like his way of handling things, she shouldn't bitch about
it. I don't know if I agree with that dad. Here is an example:
Lately, our third son Isaac (age 10) has been swearing. This is
the son I clash with.... He has ADD, is 3 years older than the
youngest, and 3/4 years younger than the 'Irish twin' older two. My
husband has more patience with him, and doesn't get his buttons
pressed like I do when dealing with him. The other morning before
school, one of the older boys was being sort of a jerk to Isaac, and
Isaac shouted 'Cut the f-ing S#@t!'
I made the oldest boy leave the room, turned to Isaac, and said
that the language had to stop, that it was not gonna fly for him to
get into the habit of cursing. Then I sent him to brush his teeth.
My husband was in the kitchen, and I said, "I don't want to lose it
with him, but something has to be done about his mouth... there has to
be a consequence."
Tim (my husband) said, "Just wash his mouth with soap every
time he swears."
I said, "I don't think I can do that."
Tim,"So what do you want to do?"
Me: "I don't know... but that's too harsh and physical and
humiliating to me, and it would probably cause more anger isues with
him."
Timpeeved) "So what do you WANT to do?"
Me: I don't KNOW! I want YOU to deal with it!
Tim: I already told you how I'd deal with it!

It sort of disintegrated from there. He was ****ed
that I rejected his idea, and I was mad that he wouldn't brainstorm to
come up with more ideas. Each kid has a myriad of little issues that
need parental input, guidance and action, and I take care of the
majority of those issues. I use a LOT of thought in my solutions, and
it just made me mad that he had this one off-the-cuff idea, and when I
rejected it - he was DONE.
This is not a big deal... it was a garden variety
argument and it's being worked out. But I used it as an example of
what Rsdf (sorry, probably wrong letters!) was talking about.

In article ,
mom0f4boys says...

'at odds about discipline' was a pretty good thread, and Vickie seems
to be on a better track, but there is this issue about BITCHING that I
find interesting. Lots of different opinions.
A dad made the point that when a woman appeals to her husband for
help with discipline, then she should accept his solution. If she
doesn't like his way of handling things, she shouldn't bitch about
it. I don't know if I agree with that dad. Here is an example:
Lately, our third son Isaac (age 10) has been swearing. This is
the son I clash with.... He has ADD, is 3 years older than the
youngest, and 3/4 years younger than the 'Irish twin' older two. My
husband has more patience with him, and doesn't get his buttons
pressed like I do when dealing with him. The other morning before
school, one of the older boys was being sort of a jerk to Isaac, and
Isaac shouted 'Cut the f-ing S#@t!'
I made the oldest boy leave the room, turned to Isaac, and said
that the language had to stop, that it was not gonna fly for him to
get into the habit of cursing. Then I sent him to brush his teeth.
My husband was in the kitchen, and I said, "I don't want to lose it
with him, but something has to be done about his mouth... there has to
be a consequence."
Tim (my husband) said, "Just wash his mouth with soap every
time he swears."
I said, "I don't think I can do that."
Tim,"So what do you want to do?"
Me: "I don't know... but that's too harsh and physical and
humiliating to me, and it would probably cause more anger isues with
him."
Timpeeved) "So what do you WANT to do?"
Me: I don't KNOW! I want YOU to deal with it!
Tim: I already told you how I'd deal with it!

Then have him implement his idea.

Banty

"then have him implement his idea"

Banty, this isn't about the swearing thing - I'm not looking
for help with that problem. It was just an example of the topic. But
hey, if I could go away for a week and not have to take part in the
soap thing, my husband could have at it!
Now and then, I can dole out a smack, but it isn't in me to
put nasty things in my kids' mouths. I didn't mind filming them when
they competed to see who could last longer after biting a clove of
garlic, but I would feel really wrong doing something so methodical as
the old 'soap in the mouth' punishment. If my husband was the one
always home, and he wanted to do the soap thing, it would be ok. Soap
won't kill anyone. But it would be too much on ME to do that.

In article ,
mom0f4boys says...

"then have him implement his idea"

Banty, this isn't about the swearing thing - I'm not looking
for help with that problem. It was just an example of the topic. But
hey, if I could go away for a week and not have to take part in the
soap thing, my husband could have at it!
Now and then, I can dole out a smack, but it isn't in me to
put nasty things in my kids' mouths. I didn't mind filming them when
they competed to see who could last longer after biting a clove of
garlic, but I would feel really wrong doing something so methodical as
the old 'soap in the mouth' punishment. If my husband was the one
always home, and he wanted to do the soap thing, it would be ok. Soap
won't kill anyone. But it would be too much on ME to do that.

See - that's exactly so often the problem. *His* idea, *you* live with it.
Yeah, I think I know what you mean.

I work in a (still) male-dominated engineering field, and there's always been
few like that. Ask any advice, even "bounce something off" them to get ideas,
and they're :shocked: :shocked: and eeved: if you don't implement said advice
as the Best Advice Ever You Must Do or Shaddup About It.

Well, at work I chock these up on my (mercifully) *short* Do Not Ask list, and
confer with someone *else* on problems. (Short list because most guys aren't
like that, even amongst us engineer types, and I've met few women like that.)
But once in a while I need to work with someone like that, and I've learned a
thing or two.

If you've married with someone like that - do the best you can do keep
responsibilities and consequences closely attached. If it's his idea, he does
it and deals with any aftermath. Even if you have to keep a score and tell him
about the transgressions the next time he comes home. (Heck, as a kid I had to
wait until my Dad got home from temporary duty in Guam or Reykjavik!) So he
gets his precious idea (and no, the kids won't break, as you acknowledge), you
get it off your hands.

It's often best even without that sort of pride-of-advice problem to divide
whole responsibilities, rather than tasks. Carve out a piece of the enterprise
and give it to them. So people can own them, both in working on it the way they
like, *and* dealing with what doesn't work. You both win in a way, and the
problem gets dealt with in some way.

It also sorts pretty quickly between those irritating
halfass-off-the-top-of-the-head ideas and ideas the adviser really believes inn
;-) (Kid crying in car, DH says "lock him in trunk", you say "ok, wait until I
find a spot to pull over..." ;-)

It's that, or maybe talk through about how people talk about ideas to sort
through for the best ones and inspire each other to come up with new ones, and
that there are many ways to skin a cat, but it sounds like you may have that
other type on your hands.

Cheers,
Banty (but of course you don't have to follow my advice.. :-)

"or maybe talk through about how people talk about ideas to sort
through for the best ones and inspire each other to come up with new
ones"
Oh, how nice it is when this actually happens! But it often
doesn't, and this is exactly what I think gets labelled as
'bitching'! The times when a mom is just out of ideas or energy, and
needs some backup, and a husband has some idea that he thought up in 2
seconds.
Successful authors are sometimes peeved at how 'just about
everyone' feels that they could write a book, and walk around with the
assumption that a successful novel is only a few sessions at a
typewriter away. It's sort of the same thing for mothers who do most
of the legwork. Hearing 'Just do this!' is really annoying.
Ahhh... luckily, life is fun and humor can be found in most
situations.

In article ,
mom0f4boys says...

"or maybe talk through about how people talk about ideas to sort
through for the best ones and inspire each other to come up with new
ones"
Oh, how nice it is when this actually happens! But it often
doesn't, and this is exactly what I think gets labelled as
'bitching'!

Yes, I do think this is the kind of thing that gets labelled "bitching". Among
many other things ;-)

The times when a mom is just out of ideas or energy, and
needs some backup, and a husband has some idea that he thought up in 2
seconds.
Successful authors are sometimes peeved at how 'just about
everyone' feels that they could write a book, and walk around with the
assumption that a successful novel is only a few sessions at a
typewriter away. It's sort of the same thing for mothers who do most
of the legwork. Hearing 'Just do this!' is really annoying.

This is where tying the actual *implementation* of the 'just do this' to the
efforts of the just-do-this-'er person works. It's the only effective education
some of these ever receive.

Banty

On Apr 20, 1:18 pm, mom0f4boys wrote:
'at odds about discipline' was a pretty good thread, and Vickie seems
to be on a better track, but there is this issue about BITCHING that I
find interesting. Lots of different opinions.
A dad made the point that when a woman appeals to her husband for
help with discipline, then she should accept his solution. If she
doesn't like his way of handling things, she shouldn't bitch about
it. I don't know if I agree with that dad.

It's in the approach after advice was given. I'll explain below...

Here is an example:
Lately, our third son Isaac (age 10) has been swearing. This is
the son I clash with.... He has ADD, is 3 years older than the
youngest, and 3/4 years younger than the 'Irish twin' older two. My
husband has more patience with him, and doesn't get his buttons
pressed like I do when dealing with him. The other morning before
school, one of the older boys was being sort of a jerk to Isaac, and
Isaac shouted 'Cut the f-ing S#@t!'
I made the oldest boy leave the room, turned to Isaac, and said
that the language had to stop, that it was not gonna fly for him to
get into the habit of cursing. Then I sent him to brush his teeth.
My husband was in the kitchen, and I said, "I don't want to lose it
with him, but something has to be done about his mouth... there has to
be a consequence."
Tim (my husband) said, "Just wash his mouth with soap every
time he swears."

Husband makes suggestion.

I said, "I don't think I can do that."

It gets shot down with no logical reasoning.

Tim,"So what do you want to do?"

Husband then asks if wife has any ideas since his was rejected.

Me: "I don't know... but that's too harsh and physical and
humiliating to me, and it would probably cause more anger isues with
him."

Wife states that she has no idea and now the reasoning comes to play.
Which is good.

Timpeeved) "So what do you WANT to do?"

Basically he says what do you expect from me since what I propose
doesn't fly with you and you have no ideas.

Me: I don't KNOW! I want YOU to deal with it!

This is where you went wrong. You still have no solution and you want
him to come up with something after he already proposed a solution.
Also, it can be interrupted that you want him to own this burden while
restricting his approach. You should have responded, in a cool calm
and nice manner, with something along the lines of "Honestly dear, I
have no idea how to resolve this issue, but I don't think washing his
mouth with soap is a good idea. Can you and I think of something else?
Maybe when you have a minute to think this through?"

See how the two approaches affect the situation? You responded in a
bitch like illogical manner instead of a cool calm person looking for
ideas for a solution.

Tim: I already told you how I'd deal with it!

Exactly. You wanted a one-way brainstorm and when given the answer,
you rejected it. You probably ****ed him off at this point.

What Vicky did was to keep introducing the problem in the above
example without proposing a valid solution and criticizing her
husband's methods, which worked. Furthermore she reintroduced the
issue after arguing or dealing with her daughter, which made her an
emotional fireball. That's what made her a bitch to her husband.

It sort of disintegrated from there. He was ****ed
that I rejected his idea,

Rejecting his idea didn't really upset him. It's what transpired
afterwards.

and I was mad that he wouldn't brainstorm to
come up with more ideas.

You didn't contribute. So you approached it in an illogical manner.

Each kid has a myriad of little issues that
need parental input, guidance and action, and I take care of the
majority of those issues. I use a LOT of thought in my solutions, and
it just made me mad that he had this one off-the-cuff idea, and when I
rejected it - he was DONE.

Again, he was done because you didn't contribute while expecting him
to produce more ideas. He probably thought your reasoning against the
soap thing was illogical as well since it worked well for a lot of
generations.

This is not a big deal... it was a garden variety
argument and it's being worked out. But I used it as an example of
what Rsdf (sorry, probably wrong letters!) was talking about.

No problem. I hope you can see where and why you might have been seen
as a bitch.

One last thing and just out of curiosity, was your husband in the
kitchen when your son used profanity and how did he respond? If he
wasn't in the kitchen, how would have he responded if he overheard the
argument and profanity?

Regards...

On Apr 20, 3:41 pm, agsf_57 wrote:
On Apr 20, 1:18 pm, mom0f4boys wrote:


This is where you went wrong. You still have no solution and you want
him to come up with something after he already proposed a solution.
Also, it can be interrupted

My bad, it should read "Interpreted". Damn spell checker!

that you want him to own this burden while
restricting his approach. You should have responded, in a cool calm
and nice manner, with something along the lines of "Honestly dear, I
have no idea how to resolve this issue, but I don't think washing his
mouth with soap is a good idea. Can you and I think of something else?
Maybe when you have a minute to think this through?"



Regards...

"One last thing and just out of curiosity, was your husband in the
kitchen when your son used profanity and how did he respond?"

He was, and he was deeply involved with toast.

"You should have responded, in a cool calm
and nice manner, with something along the lines of "Honestly dear, I
have no idea how to resolve this issue, but I don't think washing his
mouth with soap is a good idea. Can you and I think of something
else?
Maybe when you have a minute to think this through?"

See how the two approaches affect the situation? You responded in a
bitch like illogical manner instead of a cool calm person looking for
ideas for a solution. "

Ok, agsf, this is where things go wrong, and get weird. You
just showed me a REALLY NICE WAY to say what I meant. But as an
irritating situation, I abbreviated it and expected to be
understood. How you worded what I meant..... GEEZ! It looks like a
special little tea-party invitation with pretty curli-cues on the
vowels.
Don't women get accused of giving too many details when giving
driving directions? SHORT AND SWEET... isn't that the way guys LIKE
to receive info?
But you are advising a carefully worded request in cases like
this?
I am frowning, and thinking that it is ridiculous that women are
the ones accused of being too complicated.

In article ,
agsf_57 says...

On Apr 20, 1:18 pm, mom0f4boys wrote:
'at odds about discipline' was a pretty good thread, and Vickie seems
to be on a better track, but there is this issue about BITCHING that I
find interesting. Lots of different opinions.
A dad made the point that when a woman appeals to her husband for
help with discipline, then she should accept his solution. If she
doesn't like his way of handling things, she shouldn't bitch about
it. I don't know if I agree with that dad.

It's in the approach after advice was given. I'll explain below...

Here is an example:
Lately, our third son Isaac (age 10) has been swearing. This is
the son I clash with.... He has ADD, is 3 years older than the
youngest, and 3/4 years younger than the 'Irish twin' older two. My
husband has more patience with him, and doesn't get his buttons
pressed like I do when dealing with him. The other morning before
school, one of the older boys was being sort of a jerk to Isaac, and
Isaac shouted 'Cut the f-ing S#@t!'
I made the oldest boy leave the room, turned to Isaac, and said
that the language had to stop, that it was not gonna fly for him to
get into the habit of cursing. Then I sent him to brush his teeth.
My husband was in the kitchen, and I said, "I don't want to lose it
with him, but something has to be done about his mouth... there has to
be a consequence."
Tim (my husband) said, "Just wash his mouth with soap every
time he swears."

Tim,"So what do you want to do?"

Husband then asks if wife has any ideas since his was rejected.

Me: "I don't know... but that's too harsh and physical and
humiliating to me, and it would probably cause more anger isues with
him."

Wife states that she has no idea and now the reasoning comes to play.
Which is good.

Timpeeved) "So what do you WANT to do?"

Basically he says what do you expect from me since what I propose
doesn't fly with you and you have no ideas.

Me: I don't KNOW! I want YOU to deal with it!

This is where you went wrong. You still have no solution and you want
him to come up with something after he already proposed a solution.
Also, it can be interrupted that you want him to own this burden while
restricting his approach. You should have responded, in a cool calm
and nice manner, with something along the lines of "Honestly dear, I
have no idea how to resolve this issue, but I don't think washing his
mouth with soap is a good idea. Can you and I think of something else?
Maybe when you have a minute to think this through?"

See how the two approaches affect the situation? You responded in a
bitch like illogical manner instead of a cool calm person looking for
ideas for a solution.

Tim: I already told you how I'd deal with it!

Exactly. You wanted a one-way brainstorm and when given the answer,
you rejected it. You probably ****ed him off at this point.

What Vicky did was to keep introducing the problem in the above
example without proposing a valid solution and criticizing her
husband's methods, which worked. Furthermore she reintroduced the
issue after arguing or dealing with her daughter, which made her an
emotional fireball. That's what made her a bitch to her husband.

It sort of disintegrated from there. He was ****ed
that I rejected his idea,

Rejecting his idea didn't really upset him. It's what transpired
afterwards.

and I was mad that he wouldn't brainstorm to
come up with more ideas.

You didn't contribute. So you approached it in an illogical manner.

Each kid has a myriad of little issues that
need parental input, guidance and action, and I take care of the
majority of those issues. I use a LOT of thought in my solutions, and
it just made me mad that he had this one off-the-cuff idea, and when I
rejected it - he was DONE.

Again, he was done because you didn't contribute while expecting him
to produce more ideas. He probably thought your reasoning against the
soap thing was illogical as well since it worked well for a lot of
generations.

This is not a big deal... it was a garden variety
argument and it's being worked out. But I used it as an example of
what Rsdf (sorry, probably wrong letters!) was talking about.

No problem. I hope you can see where and why you might have been seen
as a bitch.

Whoa whoa whoa. Now, making nice and saying "dear, your idea was a good one but
might have x problem please after thinking about it in your sweet time maybe we
can come up with a better one" *can* work and certainly is worth trying. But I
don't think not bending over backwards equals 'bitch'. Not that some doing of
that isn't necessary sometimes...

But I think we need to back up here. There's a bit of *non-listening* (or,
non-reading) going on here on *your* (and possibly his) part ...


Husband makes suggestion.

I said, "I don't think I can do that."

It gets shot down with no logical reasoning.


She didn't SAY "terrible idea".

She SAID "I don't think I can do that."

Her being the presumed implementer of said idea, it's perfectly valid statement.
And it does not mean his idea was shot down.

HE could consider saying "OK, I hear you tell me that it's hard for you do do,
honey, how about if, whenever one of the boys swear, *I* wash their mouth out
with soap. If I'm at work when that happens, how about if we .... (arranges
that she call, or she talk about it when he comes home, after supper,
whatever...)"

Banty