Those dreaded Early Release Days--VENT

"Banty" wroteL

Then send it out again with the registration packet.

That's done in July or August here.

This *can* be worked out.

As lots of places have already done. Why not yours?

Banty (tired of the excusifying)

I've not made a single excuse for anything. The problem
is that you seem to think that you have a say in my district,
and that you know my parents, from a distance, better than
I do. Wrong on both counts. But you do have a say in your
district. What is your excuse for not contacting them? I've
asked this, in one form or another, probably eight times
by now. I only get sarcastic moans about how such a thing
should already be done for you. Well, it isn't. So why
have you STILL not done anything about it?


P. Tierney

In article RNiqb.114667$HS4.995685@attbi_s01, P. Tierney says...


"Banty" wroteL

Then send it out again with the registration packet.

That's done in July or August here.

This *can* be worked out.

As lots of places have already done. Why not yours?

Banty (tired of the excusifying)

I've not made a single excuse for anything. The problem
is that you seem to think that you have a say in my district,
and that you know my parents, from a distance, better than
I do. Wrong on both counts. But you do have a say in your
district. What is your excuse for not contacting them? I've
asked this, in one form or another, probably eight times
by now. I only get sarcastic moans about how such a thing
should already be done for you. Well, it isn't. So why
have you STILL not done anything about it?


P. Tierney




This thing about how I'm supposedly saying that, because my district could make
the information earlier somehow means I'm dictating to your district, or that
discussing this on USENET somehow means we mean you to do something for them, is
so weird that I haven't addressed it until now.

I think schedules should be made available to parents as early as possible.
When they're set - not a few weeks before they must be hewed to. That means
naught about what peculiarities in your district may affect your situation. Got
it? We've managed to discuss this about school districts across at least two
continents and between parents who are and aren't on school staffs without
having this odd concept come up anywhere but in your posts.

That we discuss things on USENET does not mean we mean one P. Tierney should up
and fix it. Or that we're to shut up until we've launched a national effort.
Another piece of weirdness that you can drop now. Got it?

I did describe what end my efforts came to regarding a similar situation. I got
beaurocratic hoo-ha about it. That I am not turning into the Joan of Arc of
School Schedule Notification does not mean we shouldn't discuss it here on
misc.kids.

So calm down.

Banty

"Banty" wrote:

This thing about how I'm supposedly saying that, because my district could
make
the information earlier somehow means I'm dictating to your district, or
that
discussing this on USENET somehow means we mean you to do something for
them, is
so weird that I haven't addressed it until now.

Since one of the solutions -- calling your district -- is something that
you've refused to do despite labeling the piece of paper "vital information"
is what is weird. Many did not consider waiting until August a problem.
You did. So why *not* do something about it? It's consistent with what
I've said all along -- that it's a local issue, as different districts have
different
needs.

I think schedules should be made available to parents as early as
possible.

And I've stated all along that local districts, with parent input, can
handle this. As also stated, also without response (so I guess it must
also be "weird") that this is one piece of communication that goes
out to parents, and that it can be looked at wholly instead of randomly.

When they're set - not a few weeks before they must be hewed to. That
means
naught about what peculiarities in your district may affect your
situation. Got
it? We've managed to discuss this about school districts across at least
two
continents and between parents who are and aren't on school staffs without
having this odd concept come up anywhere but in your posts.

My posts? You've continually mixed the two issues. That's
why the discussion has been completely illogical, since it's back
and forth again and again.

That we discuss things on USENET does not mean we mean one P. Tierney
should up
and fix it.

You've specifically told me what *I* should be doing in past posts.
You've chosen to make it personal, not only references to my actions,
but my motivations and my ability to understand and communicate
with the parents that I've dealt with for nine years.

I did describe what end my efforts came to regarding a similar situation.
I got
beaurocratic hoo-ha about it. That I am not turning into the Joan of Arc
of
School Schedule Notification does not mean we shouldn't discuss it here on
misc.kids.

So calm down.

If you want me to be calm, then *discuss* things, preferably with
an open mind. Do not berate, talk down to, assume negative motivations,
mock, and be sarcastic towards one with a differing point of view than you.
You do it in this post. You've done it in nearly every other one too.


P. Tierney

toto wrote in :

Ime, there are a lot more people who are so disorganized that if they
got the info 18 months in advance, it would be lost by the time they
needed it than there are people who actually need the information
18 months in advance. You are talking here about sending out a
calendar for September, in March of the previous year and it is not
something I've seen done anywhere I have worked or gone to school.
In order to send it out in March, the approval would have to occur in
January or February of that previous school year and there are
simply too many other things on the agenda at that time of year,
I suspect.

This is one of those things that are different in different places. I've
got a list of the main term dates up to July 2005: it was sent out before
October 2003. It also warns us that the school will be closed on "two
other days during the year for Staff Training, he dates of which have not
yet been decided". So over here, the closures are considered sufficiently
important that we know of their existance a year in advance.

I can see getting the information out at the end (June) of the
previous school year if the calendar is decided at that time. In
some places, the final calendar is not decided until the July or
August board meetings where it is approved.

Are you really saying that in January 2003 no-one knew when your school
would start back in August/September 2003? That seems such short notice
to me! I could understand if it was for August/September 2004, so maybe
I have got it wrong.

I think there needs to be some compromise with those who really
do need the information so early taking some iniative in terms of
getting it.

The information was on the back of another newsletter, and I expect
we will get sent the 2004/5 dates again sometime towards the end of the
academic year. So the people who need it have got it *now*, and the
disorganised people will be reminded again.

The information on the term dates takes 11 lines (including blank lines).
*Everyone* will need it eventually, so it is one of those things that it is
so obvious to send out as soon as it is available. If it took pages
and pages (and maybe it does where you are) then I could see the point
in waiting to send it out.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

"Penny Gaines" wrote:

I can see getting the information out at the end (June) of the
previous school year if the calendar is decided at that time. In
some places, the final calendar is not decided until the July or
August board meetings where it is approved.

Are you really saying that in January 2003 no-one knew when your school
would start back in August/September 2003? That seems such short notice
to me!

Well, that's how it is here. I'm sure that "unofficial" dates are
created well in advance, and those dates might end up not changing
99.9% of the time. But it isn't made official, here, until several
months later. I can't presume that there aren't reasons for this.


P. Tierney

P. Tierney wrote in T1mqb.118904$HS4.1012644@attbi_s01:

"Banty" wrote:

This thing about how I'm supposedly saying that, because my district
could
make
the information earlier somehow means I'm dictating to your district, or
that
discussing this on USENET somehow means we mean you to do something for
them, is
so weird that I haven't addressed it until now.

Well, the value of discussing things like thie on usenet is that you
can sometimes get to hear another side of the argument, and come across
a viewpoint you haven't heard of before. I don't go around the school
playground discussing how much notice we get about school holidays,
and hence it would never have occured to me that some people consider
a couple of months notice to be adequete.

Since one of the solutions -- calling your district -- is something
that
you've refused to do despite labeling the piece of paper "vital
information"
is what is weird. Many did not consider waiting until August a problem.
You did. So why *not* do something about it? It's consistent with what
I've said all along -- that it's a local issue, as different districts
have different
needs.

This might be due to our different backgrounds. I have always worked in the
kind of place where long-range schedules are important and hence are made
available early on. *If* the long-range schedule is not made available,
that is because it *does not existant* yet. As I am used to that
sort of working enviroment, it would not occur to me that a long-range
schedule was available to people who asked, but not given out in general.

I think it is relevant that people who don't have a problem with the
schedule being giving out at short notice are working in (an) educational
system. You don't have the experience where you and you alone set your
schedule, but are unable to change it at short notice (where short notice
may be three months in advance.)

The other problem (and this is common across many industries) is that
people within the system may not realise the limited knowledge that people
outside the system have. As an example, someone said it did not matter to
them which day in the second week of August they went back: the
teachers might know that the schools go back then, but the parents might
not realise.

For example, if the schools go back on Wednesday 13th August this year,
on Wednesday 11th 2004, and Wednesday 10th in 2005. If you work on the
assumption that they go back on the second Wednesday in August,
you would immediately be able to tell they go back on Wednesday 9th in 2006.
However, I can also envisage a system where you go back on the Wednesday of
the second full week in August, and hence the actual starting date would be
Wednesday 16th.

Now, over the years there have been many changes between the way the
education system was set up when I was at school, and now my kids are
at school. If you work in the education system, those incremental
changes are probably very slight from year to year: if you are not in
the education system, the changes from you being at school to your kids
being at school are pretty big. So even though you have been through the
system twenty plus years ago, does not mean you are familiar with the
system as it stands now, especially if you came from a different area.

I think schedules should be made available to parents as early as
possible.

And I've stated all along that local districts, with parent input, can
handle this. As also stated, also without response (so I guess it must
also be "weird") that this is one piece of communication that goes
out to parents, and that it can be looked at wholly instead of randomly.

Well, as I don't know your district, maybe you are right. Maybe you do know
all the parents of all the children at school, and what all their concerns
and preferences are.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

"Penny Gaines" wrote:

Well, the value of discussing things like thie on usenet is that you
can sometimes get to hear another side of the argument, and come across
a viewpoint you haven't heard of before. I don't go around the school
playground discussing how much notice we get about school holidays,
and hence it would never have occured to me that some people consider
a couple of months notice to be adequete.

I agree.

Since one of the solutions -- calling your district -- is something
that
you've refused to do despite labeling the piece of paper "vital
information"
is what is weird. Many did not consider waiting until August a problem.
You did. So why *not* do something about it? It's consistent with what
I've said all along -- that it's a local issue, as different districts
have different
needs.

This might be due to our different backgrounds. I have always worked in
the
kind of place where long-range schedules are important and hence are made
available early on.

It has has something to do with the different systems that we
live in, made more different by being in different countries, and
the expectations that arise from those differences. If many here
required long-range schedules, then the schools would have to
likely find some way to accomodate those parents by doing it
farther in advance. Or it could be reversed, as the workforce could
have to relax their expectations if the schools are not able, for
whatever reason, to do things that far in advance. One of the two.

But schools are a part of society, not a part from, or adversaries
of. The two can find ways to meet fairly easily.

I think it is relevant that people who don't have a problem with the
schedule being giving out at short notice are working in (an) educational
system.

This isn't the case. I've worked with many who are not
teachers who do not have a problem with things as they are
here. Furthermore, only a few people on this largely non-teacher
forum have expressed any problem with getting things when
they do.

And I've stated all along that local districts, with parent input,
can
handle this. As also stated, also without response (so I guess it must
also be "weird") that this is one piece of communication that goes
out to parents, and that it can be looked at wholly instead of randomly.

Well, as I don't know your district, maybe you are right. Maybe you do
know
all the parents of all the children at school, and what all their concerns
and preferences are.

I've never claimed to know all of them. But you don't know
any of them, just as I don't know any where you live. Note that
I've not disputed a single point about your claims about the needs
of your community, as you see it. I've not used sarcasm or
exaggeration to make light of your claims, or your experience.
I'd appreciate the same respect.


P.
Tierney

On Thu, 6 Nov 2003, P. Tierney wrote:

"Penny Gaines" wrote:

Well, the value of discussing things like thie on usenet is that you
can sometimes get to hear another side of the argument, and come across
a viewpoint you haven't heard of before. I don't go around the school
playground discussing how much notice we get about school holidays,
and hence it would never have occured to me that some people consider
a couple of months notice to be adequete.

I agree.

Since one of the solutions -- calling your district -- is something
that
you've refused to do despite labeling the piece of paper "vital
information"
is what is weird. Many did not consider waiting until August a problem.
You did. So why *not* do something about it? It's consistent with what
I've said all along -- that it's a local issue, as different districts
have different
needs.

This might be due to our different backgrounds. I have always worked in
the
kind of place where long-range schedules are important and hence are made
available early on.

It has has something to do with the different systems that we
live in, made more different by being in different countries, and
the expectations that arise from those differences. If many here
required long-range schedules, then the schools would have to
likely find some way to accomodate those parents by doing it
farther in advance. Or it could be reversed, as the workforce could
have to relax their expectations if the schools are not able, for
whatever reason, to do things that far in advance. One of the two.

But schools are a part of society, not a part from, or adversaries
of. The two can find ways to meet fairly easily.

I think it is relevant that people who don't have a problem with the
schedule being giving out at short notice are working in (an) educational
system.

This isn't the case. I've worked with many who are not
teachers who do not have a problem with things as they are
here. Furthermore, only a few people on this largely non-teacher
forum have expressed any problem with getting things when
they do.

Who else is teaching? You (before baby)? Me? And? Who are all these
people in education advocating short notices? And what is short notice?
Some have suggested calendars should be out a year or two ahead of time.
I think spring is more reasonable for the districts where I've been
employed. But I don't consider spring to be "short notice."

I only said I didn't pay any attention recently - this year being
an example in that I didn't even know when the first day of school
was. Had nothing to do with availability. I access our calendars
online. It has to do with the fact that I don't have any money
to buy into timeshares, etc., and can't afford a vacation or
get away these days so I'm home, two miles from school, and
life goes on. I started working onsite two weeks before the
official first day so I wasn't too worried about it. FOR ME.

I think it is important that people be informed in a timely
manner. But I also know some things about our calendar cannot
be planned years in advance. Our calendar is subject to a
variety of influences.

Joni Rathbun wrote in
:

Some have suggested calendars should be out a year or two ahead of time.
I think spring is more reasonable for the districts where I've been
employed. But I don't consider spring to be "short notice."

Well, our calender is availbale nearly two years ahead of time, although
when I think about it, I haven't known needed to know more then a year
ahead.

I did once try to booking in January to stay in a specific hotel in
August: the main August weeks were all booked up, but because our school
broke up early compared to many (only by a few days, less then a week),
I could get in at the end of July. Had it been the other way round -
that we went back late - I would have wanted the information then.

I only said I didn't pay any attention recently - this year being
an example in that I didn't even know when the first day of school
was. Had nothing to do with availability. I access our calendars
online. It has to do with the fact that I don't have any money
to buy into timeshares, etc., and can't afford a vacation or
get away these days so I'm home, two miles from school, and
life goes on. I started working onsite two weeks before the
official first day so I wasn't too worried about it. FOR ME.

I suspect it mainly affects the Very Important People and the
Very Unimportant People: the ones who have lots of choice, but lots
of people affected by their timings, and the people with almost
no choice about their timings.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

In article , Banty wrote:

Note, re-wrapping is my own.

No, it isn't being discussed as an alternative. What's being contended
is that
any parents who need to know the upcoming schedule should call the
school and/or
check the website. So basically:

1. Parents should all know that there these 'alternate' days,
'supervisor' days,
'teacher-parent conference' half-days, 'conference' days.

Yes, parents (and everyone else in my opinion) should be aware
that schools aren't open every week from monday to friday.
There's winter break, spring break, sometimes fall break
and this lovely thing called summer vacation.

2. Parents should know when the schools know.

I don't think that knowing when the school knows is neccessary.
I think that you know when you'd like to know by, and you ask if
it will be available by then.

I'd wager pretty a lot that the school doesn't take the attitude
that their
*employees* needn't be notified, that their employees can just
call sometime if
they want to know their own schedule.

I've worked for two colleges and a vo-tech. I never got a schedule in
the mail. I never got a schedule in an e-mail. I went to the website
and looked or I called and asked. Now I work for yet another university.
I usually forget to check the website. If a closed day affects payroll,
it's on my payroll notice (comes out biannually) - otherwise the
secretaries (who check the website) usually remind us the day/week
before. As an adult, I'm generally considered perfectly capable of
such tasks.

As a new parent (oldest kid going into 1st), I had no idea there were all
these
extra odd-assundry days. A couple of years later, I was pretty surprised to
find out that it's set as early as April the year before, although parents
aren't notified until the following September (and some here do not see the
reason to send home flyers even then!)

This is *really* school district dependant. I've lived in districts
where the schedule has to be approved by a vote of everyone who lives
in the district. Usually it's discussed at school board meetings and
has to pass a vote there. That's always been mentioned in the
newspaper. Surely you were aware of the possibility that school
might be closed on federal or other holidays. I don't see that
other days of closure are significantly different than figuring
out what subset of federal holidays is observed.

In my experience, which is probably 10 years old by now, the
schedule was usually included in the packet of start-of-school
things like rules and dress code. Most parents (mine included)
didn't read them, or keep them. I think I stopped showing them
to my parents at some point.

It's a stupid beaurocratic attitude - 'everyone should know *our*
procedure and
schedules because, after all, don't *we* know them'. Either than,
or they think
the only difference to the parent is whether or not the kiddies are home when
they polish the silver and bake the cookies :-\
So what is it.

I suspect it's much like when you move to a new town. There are trash
pickup schedules, recycling schedules, hours for city hall, etc. The
information you want is available, but you mgiht have to ask. If
enough people request one, there might be a new resident information
packet available. Have you tried asking the PTA if they could do that?

Elaine