OT- for Americans - found this of interest (x-posted)

On 06 Nov 2003 01:35:48 GMT, GI Trekker wrote:
The objective is nothing less than the removal of all Christian references from
public society, despite the fact that there's no such thing as "separation of
church and state" in the Constitution. This document states that Congress shall
not establish a particular religion, but neither shall it hinder it. This
country was founded, nonetheless, on Christian principles, by God-fearing men,
who would be sickened by people like Newdow and their attempts to make
second-class citizens of Christians in America.

Holy cow, what are you smoking? Most of the founding fathers were
Deists, at most. Franklin, in particular, was only interested in
religion insofar as it prompted people to perform good works for
society. In regards to Christianity and Jesus,, he writes:

"I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some
doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not
dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless
to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity
of knowing the truth with less trouble."

Have you ever read Paine's "Age of Reason?"

"P. Tierney" wrote in message news:R8mqb.120409$Tr4.333737@attbi_s03...

Sounds good. It would require people to know about the
document that the Founding Fathers *intended to be public*
instead of making assumptions about their religions that
many of them intended to be private.

Why many hotels include Bibles in their bedside tables
instead of a copy of the Constitution, or at least a pamphlet
with the Bill of Rights, is a bit baffling.

The Bibles are given free to the hotels. I would bet if such a pamphlet
that you describe were made available, hotels would put them in their
rooms.

Of course, as with the Bible, the BOR has many interpetations. Amendment
XIV, for example, appears to have different meanings to different people.

-TOE

P. Tierney

On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 06:48:18 GMT, P. Tierney wrote:
Why many hotels include Bibles in their bedside tables
instead of a copy of the Constitution, or at least a pamphlet
with the Bill of Rights, is a bit baffling.

They're freebies, typically provided by the Gideons.

That being said, I'm not sure that the Jehovah's Witnesses
material I found on one trip were sanctioned by the
hotel management.... it did make for amusing reading, though.

In article , Tom Enright
says...

"P. Tierney" wrote in message
news:R8mqb.120409$Tr4.333737@attbi_s03...

Sounds good. It would require people to know about the
document that the Founding Fathers *intended to be public*
instead of making assumptions about their religions that
many of them intended to be private.

Why many hotels include Bibles in their bedside tables
instead of a copy of the Constitution, or at least a pamphlet
with the Bill of Rights, is a bit baffling.

The Bibles are given free to the hotels. I would bet if such a pamphlet
that you describe were made available, hotels would put them in their
rooms.

This is just about the only thing in this thread I'd be iwth you on. Gideons
are a private organization which operates by agreement with private hotels and
motels. I have no problem with Gideon Bibles in rooms I hire from private
organizations, non-beleiver though I am. If Mr. Tierney wants to see the Bill
of Rights in every hotel room, he can make the effort to form "The Tierneys" and
place 'Tierney Documents' in all the hotel rooms ;-)


Of course, as with the Bible, the BOR has many interpetations. Amendment
XIV, for example, appears to have different meanings to different people.

But you have some real problems with basics. As to the above, you need to
educate yourself concerning the function of the jucidial branch of our
government.

Banty

In article ,
user wrote:

On 06 Nov 2003 01:35:48 GMT, GI Trekker wrote:
The objective is nothing less than the removal of all Christian references
from
public society, despite the fact that there's no such thing as "separation
of
church and state" in the Constitution. This document states that Congress
shall
not establish a particular religion, but neither shall it hinder it. This
country was founded, nonetheless, on Christian principles, by God-fearing
men,
who would be sickened by people like Newdow and their attempts to make
second-class citizens of Christians in America.

Holy cow, what are you smoking? Most of the founding fathers were
Deists, at most. Franklin, in particular, was only interested in
religion insofar as it prompted people to perform good works for
society. In regards to Christianity and Jesus,, he writes:

"I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some
doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not
dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless
to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity
of knowing the truth with less trouble."

Have you ever read Paine's "Age of Reason?"

Or Jefferson's Bible? -- he took a razor blade to it, removed
everything he thought was undoubtedly untrue (which included all of the
miracle stories), and combined what was left of the Gospels into a
single narrative. He said he thought that within less than a century a
belief in the virgin birth of Jesus would go the way of a belief in
unicorns: a pretty myth, but nothing more.

Whenever someone states that this country was founded as a Christian
nation, I wonder if they've actually READ much of what our founders
wrote!

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

In article , dragonlady
says...


Have you ever read Paine's "Age of Reason?"

Or Jefferson's Bible? -- he took a razor blade to it, removed
everything he thought was undoubtedly untrue (which included all of the
miracle stories), and combined what was left of the Gospels into a
single narrative. He said he thought that within less than a century a
belief in the virgin birth of Jesus would go the way of a belief in
unicorns: a pretty myth, but nothing more.

Whenever someone states that this country was founded as a Christian
nation, I wonder if they've actually READ much of what our founders
wrote!


I guess it best be viewed as an educational opportunity.

Because what happens is:

1. GITrekker or GITrekkerILK makes x statement, x being that the US was founded
on Xtianity, or that kids can't pray in school, or... or

2. Others post real information, with references, which contradict x.

3. Wait about two months, maybe even less.

4. GITRekker or GITrekkerIlk makes x statement, x being that the US was founded
on Xtianity, or that kids can't pray in school, or... or

These things are truisms which are parroted by some people, without examination
of what they mean or whether or not they're true, and no interest in such
examination.

So the best we can do is educate the rest.

Banty

"Tom Enright" wrote in message
om...
"P. Tierney" wrote in message
news:R8mqb.120409$Tr4.333737@attbi_s03...

Sounds good. It would require people to know about the
document that the Founding Fathers *intended to be public*
instead of making assumptions about their religions that
many of them intended to be private.

Why many hotels include Bibles in their bedside tables
instead of a copy of the Constitution, or at least a pamphlet
with the Bill of Rights, is a bit baffling.

The Bibles are given free to the hotels. I would bet if such a pamphlet
that you describe were made available, hotels would put them in their
rooms.

Thanks for the open minded response. I wasn't aware
that they are freebies.


P. Tierney

On 6 Nov 2003 09:34:56 -0800, Banty wrote:
In article , dragonlady
says...


Have you ever read Paine's "Age of Reason?"

Or Jefferson's Bible? -- he took a razor blade to it, removed
everything he thought was undoubtedly untrue (which included all of the
miracle stories), and combined what was left of the Gospels into a
single narrative. He said he thought that within less than a century a
belief in the virgin birth of Jesus would go the way of a belief in
unicorns: a pretty myth, but nothing more.

Whenever someone states that this country was founded as a Christian
nation, I wonder if they've actually READ much of what our founders
wrote!


I guess it best be viewed as an educational opportunity.

Because what happens is:

1. GITrekker or GITrekkerILK makes x statement, x being that the US was founded
on Xtianity, or that kids can't pray in school, or... or

2. Others post real information, with references, which contradict x.

3. Wait about two months, maybe even less.

4. GITRekker or GITrekkerIlk makes x statement, x being that the US was founded
on Xtianity, or that kids can't pray in school, or... or

These things are truisms which are parroted by some people, without examination
of what they mean or whether or not they're true, and no interest in such
examination.

I think this is one of those cases where he's exhibiting the
"If you say something often enough, SOMEONE will think it's true."
technique....

On 6 Nov 2003 09:34:56 -0800, Banty wrote:
In article , dragonlady
says...


Have you ever read Paine's "Age of Reason?"

Or Jefferson's Bible? -- he took a razor blade to it, removed
everything he thought was undoubtedly untrue (which included all of the
miracle stories), and combined what was left of the Gospels into a
single narrative. He said he thought that within less than a century a
belief in the virgin birth of Jesus would go the way of a belief in
unicorns: a pretty myth, but nothing more.

Whenever someone states that this country was founded as a Christian
nation, I wonder if they've actually READ much of what our founders
wrote!


I guess it best be viewed as an educational opportunity.

Because what happens is:

1. GITrekker or GITrekkerILK makes x statement, x being that the US was founded
on Xtianity, or that kids can't pray in school, or... or

2. Others post real information, with references, which contradict x.

3. Wait about two months, maybe even less.

4. GITRekker or GITrekkerIlk makes x statement, x being that the US was founded
on Xtianity, or that kids can't pray in school, or... or

These things are truisms which are parroted by some people, without examination
of what they mean or whether or not they're true, and no interest in such
examination.

So the best we can do is educate the rest.

Just found this: http://religion.aynrand.org/quotes.html

I will express the caveat that I have nothing to do with the website
or author of the page, and can't verify the exact quotes or context,
but the material quoted does sound correct from my readings, and I'll
check when I get a chance to look at my bookshelf. ;-)

In article , user says...

On 6 Nov 2003 09:34:56 -0800, Banty wrote:
In article , dragonlady
says...


Have you ever read Paine's "Age of Reason?"

Or Jefferson's Bible? -- he took a razor blade to it, removed
everything he thought was undoubtedly untrue (which included all of the
miracle stories), and combined what was left of the Gospels into a
single narrative. He said he thought that within less than a century a
belief in the virgin birth of Jesus would go the way of a belief in
unicorns: a pretty myth, but nothing more.

Whenever someone states that this country was founded as a Christian
nation, I wonder if they've actually READ much of what our founders
wrote!


I guess it best be viewed as an educational opportunity.

Because what happens is:

1. GITrekker or GITrekkerILK makes x statement, x being that the US was founded
on Xtianity, or that kids can't pray in school, or... or

2. Others post real information, with references, which contradict x.

3. Wait about two months, maybe even less.

4. GITRekker or GITrekkerIlk makes x statement, x being that the US was founded
on Xtianity, or that kids can't pray in school, or... or

These things are truisms which are parroted by some people, without examination
of what they mean or whether or not they're true, and no interest in such
examination.

So the best we can do is educate the rest.

Just found this: http://religion.aynrand.org/quotes.html

I will express the caveat that I have nothing to do with the website
or author of the page, and can't verify the exact quotes or context,
but the material quoted does sound correct from my readings, and I'll
check when I get a chance to look at my bookshelf. ;-)



arrrgh - I haven't looked at it closely - it may be OK but I'd go to other sites
first, Objectivism being practially a religion of its own sort.

I can post some stuff later..