about "bitching"

Banty wrote:

The essential problem is WHY is one parent the neophyte? If both parents take
ownership of the job of childrearing, one won't be the neophyte. (So, the one
who hasn't been involved has only him/herself to blame for the ideas getting
less weight).

That is certainly an issue. I think that depending on how a
family is organized, there will often be one parent who is with the
children more than the other, in which case that parent is going to
climb the experience curve more quickly, but there is no reason that
any parent can't do his or her best to gain both theoretical and
experiential knowledge in order to be a useful partner in parenting.

The thing that's hard to apply, whether both are truly involved or not, is to
distinguish what really is a bad idea as in truly ineffective or even damaging,
and when it really is a matter of differences in style and personality and how
people pretty universally prefer whatever idea they thought of.

Sure. But respectful people who are both interested in
the welfare of the children have conversations about these things
(not in front of the children), rather than playing games about
who's in a snit because his off the cuff idea isn't immediately
adopted as gospel. Someone who really respected his wife's effort
and expertise wouldn't just toss out an off the cuff idea in a
take-it-or-leave-it fashion. He'd consider that if his wife
was having difficulty, perhaps the problem was a bit thornier
than it might appear at first and engage in a conversation to
learn more about it before throwing out suggestions.

Of course, if you ask me, the fact that the child was
using inappropriate language and only the mother stepped up to
do anything about it even though the father was present speaks
volumes about the likely root cause anyway. Apparently, Dad
doesn't think it's a problem, and the son is going to follow
Dad's lead. So, in fact, Mom doesn't have much prayer of
solving the issue if Dad isn't going to show any leadership.
And that's really why she's having trouble coming up with a
solution. There's little she can do that will overcome Dad's
obvious tacit approval of the cussing.

Best wishes,
Ericka

In article , Ericka Kammerer
says...

Banty wrote:

The essential problem is WHY is one parent the neophyte? If both parents take
ownership of the job of childrearing, one won't be the neophyte. (So, the one
who hasn't been involved has only him/herself to blame for the ideas getting
less weight).

That is certainly an issue. I think that depending on how a
family is organized, there will often be one parent who is with the
children more than the other, in which case that parent is going to
climb the experience curve more quickly, but there is no reason that
any parent can't do his or her best to gain both theoretical and
experiential knowledge in order to be a useful partner in parenting.

Right. It doesn't have to be 50-50 or anything like that. But it cant be "I'll
take them to soccer and go to school plays and play with them but you do the
rest" either.


The thing that's hard to apply, whether both are truly involved or not, is to
distinguish what really is a bad idea as in truly ineffective or even damaging,
and when it really is a matter of differences in style and personality and how
people pretty universally prefer whatever idea they thought of.

Sure. But respectful people who are both interested in
the welfare of the children have conversations about these things
(not in front of the children), rather than playing games about
who's in a snit because his off the cuff idea isn't immediately
adopted as gospel.

Yep. And there's nobody up in the sky keeping a ledger of whose idea was first
and if an idea was proffered for every idea rejected or any of that hoo haa.

Someone who really respected his wife's effort
and expertise wouldn't just toss out an off the cuff idea in a
take-it-or-leave-it fashion. He'd consider that if his wife
was having difficulty, perhaps the problem was a bit thornier
than it might appear at first and engage in a conversation to
learn more about it before throwing out suggestions.

Of course, if you ask me, the fact that the child was
using inappropriate language and only the mother stepped up to
do anything about it even though the father was present speaks
volumes about the likely root cause anyway. Apparently, Dad
doesn't think it's a problem, and the son is going to follow
Dad's lead.

*Does* Dad think it's a problem or not?

So, in fact, Mom doesn't have much prayer of
solving the issue if Dad isn't going to show any leadership.
And that's really why she's having trouble coming up with a
solution. There's little she can do that will overcome Dad's
obvious tacit approval of the cussing.

Yep. And she said "I want *you* to deal with it.'", I dont think she mean "I
want you and only you forever here on out to be the one to deal with it."

Banty

mom0f4boys wrote:
roughshod over the boys in a fit of anger.

Rule number 1 of training animals and children is this: do nothing in
a fit of anger.

I don't know what your children's behaviors are that need
modification, but I can tell you that no matter what they are, you may
find some useful ideas about timing and technique in books on training
animals. Especially on training dogs and horses. Because animals are
trained by our actions, not our words, the training issues tend to be
more easily reduced to their essentials. Timing is very important.

Pologirl

"Does* Dad think it's a problem or not?" (the swearing)

If he is engaged with the kids at the moment it happens, he'll
say 'Hey, watch your mouth'. Otherwise, he seems to tune it out or
only be vaguely aware of it. He has some strong points as a dad...
he is affectionate with all of them, wrestling and hugging a lot. He
loves to fool with them and usually says yes to most requests for his
time ('Will you color with me? Wanna play chess? Hey, wanna go check
out this new fishing spot?'). And concrete problems, like a messed up
fishing rod or brake-job for a bicycle.. he is good with that stuff.
It's just problems which involve behavior or emotions, he usually is
ineffective, and gets irritated and stops trying. It seems like he
becomes defeated before he even puts his mind to the problem. And
that bothers me, because it leaves just ME to deal with all of that
stuff.

" I can tell you that no matter what they are, you may
find some useful ideas about timing and technique in books on
training
animals. "

Pologirl, I agree. A good study of how wolves behave
together in a pack gives TONS of valuable info for managing 4 kids
(especially boys...and I'm not kidding!) Also, the similarities to
dog-training are numerous. To anyone who has never owned a dog, that
probably sounds demeaning toward children, but it isn't meant to be.
Alas, when kids approach adolescence, the similarities taper off.
Although, come to think of it, maybe not: adolescent animals of all
kinds are notorious misbehavers!

In article ,
mom0f4boys says...


Pologirl, I agree. A good study of how wolves behave
together in a pack gives TONS of valuable info for managing 4 kids
(especially boys...and I'm not kidding!) Also, the similarities to
dog-training are numerous. To anyone who has never owned a dog, that
probably sounds demeaning toward children, but it isn't meant to be.
Alas, when kids approach adolescence, the similarities taper off.
Although, come to think of it, maybe not: adolescent animals of all
kinds are notorious misbehavers!

Actually, I think any social group has a lot of similarities to wolf packs.

Banty

On Apr 22, 11:08 pm, mom0f4boys wrote:
Wow, I have definitely gained both insight and validation from these
responses (even though my 'example' was not meant as a plea for
advice!).

I just broke down the example you gave to show you how we think and
where you went wrong!

Conclusions:
1.) I should have been more honest, and flat out said, 'I just
don't have it in me to deal with this right now, so will you?'


No good. Since it already happened and you already talked to him, I
would be confused as to what you would expect from me and I would have
responded "What do you want me to do?" and you would respond, "I don't
know" and it would roller coaster into an argument.


2.) But if I had just said that, and my husband went ahead and
forced the soap-thing right then, I would have stopped
him.

Then you would have been in the wrong. You should wait until he is
done and talk to him afterwards when the two of you are alone.

3.) The actual problem that I need to address with my husband is
this: It's exhausting to be in charge of all the 'behavior
modification' with four boys; I need help.

Sit down and make a list of things you think are issues and you need
help with. Then brainstorm together as to how to solve them.

4.) The bigger problem (harder to solve) is that although I need
help, I am not willing to watch my husband (who IS an
amateur at behavior modification, and tends to stick to
ideas even when they don't work)... I'm not willing to watch him run
roughshod over the boys in a fit of anger. I'm not trash-talking him,
I'm stating a fact: when something doesn't work, he just gets mad and
tries to force it, and if he can't force it he accepts defeat.

I don't know about all this talk about behavior modification. It's
like we are a society that tries to cookie cut our children into what
we think they should be and if they don't respond accordingly, we
label them as having ADD (or whatever) and feed them pills. From what
you describe, it seems like you have a house full of healthy boys and
a husband who loves you dearly. The trials that they have with their
dad are the trials of life. It creates a great bond.

5.) Because of # 4, it is ridiculous to expect #1. So # 3 is
how it will stay.

Maybe you need behavior modification??

Final conclusion: Yes, I was a bitch, but I forgive
myself. Sighhhhh

But you should ask for forgiveness from your husband, because no man
looks forward to coming home to a bitch! (or eating toast with one).

Regards...

On Apr 22, 11:50 pm, mom0f4boys wrote:
Responding to:
I think the problem is that, when the two of them were faced with a joint problem....

"Especially one that she initiated..."

"She" didn't initiate the problem. The problem was a 10-
year-old swearing. And no, not a stepchild or foster child, which are
the only reasons (although sorta lame ones) that I can think of to
exempt the dad from having to care.

Dear, apparently it wasn't important to him or he felt that you
already handled it. You raised the issue, therefore initiated the
situation.

Regards...

" Dear, apparently it wasn't important to him "

Sweety, that's the problem.

On Apr 24, 6:42 pm, mom0f4boys wrote:
"Does* Dad think it's a problem or not?" (the swearing)

If he is engaged with the kids at the moment it happens, he'll
say 'Hey, watch your mouth'. Otherwise, he seems to tune it out or
only be vaguely aware of it.

Sounds like me. From my perspective, it's not something I like to see
happen, but if and when it happens, I am not going to start WWIII or
go overboard about it or even make it an issue. I either ignore it or
raise my voice to tell him to stop. And if I tell him to stop, it's
usually cause my wife is giving me the evil stare of "Look at your
son, what are you going to do about it!". Maybe cussing is like
burping and farting?

It's just problems which involve behavior or emotions, he usually is
ineffective, and gets irritated and stops trying. It seems like he
becomes defeated before he even puts his mind to the problem. And
that bothers me, because it leaves just ME to deal with all of that
stuff.

Maybe it's because he thinks you are leading a crusade or getting too
involved in matters he thinks are trivial in nature. Maybe when you
start implementing something new, he thinks "oh boy, here we go again!
I wonder what moron or book suggested this!"

Ask him if this is indeed the case. Just don't smack him when he says
yes!

Regards...

On Apr 25, 10:44 pm, mom0f4boys wrote:
" Dear, apparently it wasn't important to him "

Sweety, that's the problem.

I know from your perspective that is the problem. My suggestion is to
let it go! He is not going to change and forcing your ideals onto him
will only hinder the situation. Deal with it on your own terms. I
doubt he's stopping you. You want his input and help, then asking him
to brainstorm with you when he has thought about it is the best route,
but please be prepared to give some ideas as well. In fact, I'm sure
he's open to what you suggest as long as you stop approaching him with
this issue!

Regards...