Questions that anti-spanking zealotS can't answered.

On 20 Jul 2005 wrote:



Jirimi J wrote:
Hierophant:

Following your line of logic, I could say:

It is quite simple really

Prison is about getting what you want from a criminal by threatening
incarceration if you don't get it. It begins there it ends there no
research need be done.

The analogy is flawed. Children are not criminals, until they become
one by resistance to others using coersive force on them.

The pattern comes from the raising of the child.

The line of logic is accurate based on how humans actually DO respond
to the use of force. You do know the recidivism rate for convicts,
right?

Shall we not lock them up?

Of course, and in the mean time, so we don't have to, let's take
another look at child rearing practices in countries with high rates of
criminality and lots of prisons and prisoners.

You mean like comparing Sweden to Singapore? ;-)

Show me the convicts that were not spanked as children.

Show me the great men in history that were not spanked as children.
Aren't you the one who tried to claim that Albert Einstein were not
spanked??? ;-)

Doan

On Wed, 20 Jul 2005, Stephanie wrote:


"Doan" wrote in message
...
On 19 Jul 2005, Hierophant wrote:

It is quit simple really

Spanking is about getting what you want from a child by threatening
violence if you don't get it. It begins there it ends there no
research need be done.

That sounds like the logic of the anti-spanking zealotS! ;-)


You are the one who keeps bringing this up in mk. So who is the zealot?

Let's see. I support the way you parent your own children whether with
spanking or not. Do you give other parents the same choice?

Doan

What choice do the children have?

Am I not amongst those who would ask others to "think of the children"?

On 20 Jul 2005, Hierophant wrote:

What choice do the children have?

They have a choice to behave or not to behave.

Am I not amongst those who would ask others to "think of the children"?

Evil are often done in the name of children. Try to look up the McMartin
child abuse and similar case in the 1980's.

Doan

"Doan" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 20 Jul 2005, Stephanie wrote:


"Doan" wrote in message
...
On 19 Jul 2005, Hierophant wrote:

It is quit simple really

Spanking is about getting what you want from a child by threatening
violence if you don't get it. It begins there it ends there no
research need be done.

That sounds like the logic of the anti-spanking zealotS! ;-)


You are the one who keeps bringing this up in mk. So who is the zealot?

Let's see. I support the way you parent your own children whether with
spanking or not. Do you give other parents the same choice?

Doan



Do I have anything whatever to do with how someone else parents there
children?

"Doan" wrote in message
...
On 20 Jul 2005, Hierophant wrote:
What choice do the children have?

They have a choice to behave or not to behave.

Children do not have sufficient knowledge, experience, or psychological
maturity to make conscious choices about their behavior the way adults do.
They gain this over time, of course, so that a 10yo has considerably more
"choice" than a 2yo and a 15yo considerably more choice than a 10yo.

The goal in raising children, however, is to teach them what constitutes
good behavior so that they *can* make choices as they gain knowledge,
experience, and psychological maturity. One of the best ways for teaching
what constitutes good behavior is modelling it. And it is difficult, at
best, to see how spanking a child models good behavior.

Am I not amongst those who would ask others to "think of the children"?

Evil are often done in the name of children. Try to look up the McMartin
child abuse and similar case in the 1980's.

So, what's your point? Are you suggesting that because some people were
wrongly prosecuted and convicted of child abuse, *no* one should ever be
prosecuted or convicted of child abuse or that there is no such thing as
child abuse? People have been mistakenly convicted of all sorts of crimes,
but I hardly think that suggests that those crimes are not crimes!
--
Be well, Barbara

On 20 Jul 2005 22:07:45 -0700, "Hierophant"
wrote:

What choice do the children have?

Am I not amongst those who would ask others to "think of the children"?

Thomas Gordon has compiled a long list of the coping
mechanisms children use when confronted with controlling
adults. These apply to any methods of discipline that
concentrate on *controlling* children's behavior without
allowing the child to develop his self-discipline, btw. They
apply to using material rewards to control behavior as well.

Can you pick out the particular coping methods you employed
as a youngster? Do you want your child to develop any of
these techniques?

1. Resisting, defying, being negative
2. Rebelling, disobeying, being insubordinate, sassing
3. Retaliating, striking back, counterattacking, vandalizing
4. Hitting, being belligerent, combative
5. Breaking rules and laws
6. Throwing temper tantrums, getting angry
7. Lying, deceiving, hiding the truth
8. Blaming others, tattling, telling on others
9. Bossing or bullying others
10. Banding together, forming alliances, organizing against
the adult
11. Apple-polishing, buttering up, soft-soaping, bootlicking,
currying favor with adults
12. Withdrawing, fantasizing, daydreaming
13. Competing, needing to win, hating to lose, needing to
look good, making others look bad
14. Giving up, feeling defeated, loafing, goofing off
15. Leaving, escaping, staying away from home, running
away, quitting school, cutting classes
16. Not talking, ignoring, using the silent treatment, writing
the adult off, keeping one's distance
17. crying, weeping; feeling depressed or hopeless
18. Becoming fearful, shy, timid, afraid to speak up, hesitant
to try anything new
19. Needing reassurance, seeking constant approval,
feeling insecure
20. Getting sick, developing psychosomatic ailments
21. Overeating, excessive dieting
22. Being submissive, conforming, complying; being dutiful,
docile, apple-polishing, being a goody-goody, teacher's pet
23. Drinking heavily, using drugs
24. Cheating in school, plagiarizing


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

toto wrote:
On 20 Jul 2005 22:07:45 -0700, "Hierophant"
wrote:

What choice do the children have?

Am I not amongst those who would ask others to "think of the children"?

Thomas Gordon has compiled a long list of the coping
mechanisms children use when confronted with controlling
adults. These apply to any methods of discipline that
concentrate on *controlling* children's behavior without
allowing the child to develop his self-discipline, btw. They
apply to using material rewards to control behavior as well.

Can you pick out the particular coping methods you employed
as a youngster? Do you want your child to develop any of
these techniques?

1. Resisting, defying, being negative
2. Rebelling, disobeying, being insubordinate, sassing
3. Retaliating, striking back, counterattacking, vandalizing
4. Hitting, being belligerent, combative
5. Breaking rules and laws
6. Throwing temper tantrums, getting angry
7. Lying, deceiving, hiding the truth
8. Blaming others, tattling, telling on others
9. Bossing or bullying others
10. Banding together, forming alliances, organizing against
the adult
11. Apple-polishing, buttering up, soft-soaping, bootlicking,
currying favor with adults
12. Withdrawing, fantasizing, daydreaming
13. Competing, needing to win, hating to lose, needing to
look good, making others look bad
14. Giving up, feeling defeated, loafing, goofing off
15. Leaving, escaping, staying away from home, running
away, quitting school, cutting classes
16. Not talking, ignoring, using the silent treatment, writing
the adult off, keeping one's distance
17. crying, weeping; feeling depressed or hopeless
18. Becoming fearful, shy, timid, afraid to speak up, hesitant
to try anything new
19. Needing reassurance, seeking constant approval,
feeling insecure
20. Getting sick, developing psychosomatic ailments
21. Overeating, excessive dieting
22. Being submissive, conforming, complying; being dutiful,
docile, apple-polishing, being a goody-goody, teacher's pet
23. Drinking heavily, using drugs
24. Cheating in school, plagiarizing



Frequently the Strauss study is mentioned here pointing to it failure
to show that non-spanking methods work. The study scored for antisocial
behaviors.

Each time it's been offered as "proof" that non-spanking methods "don't
work," I've pointed out that the four "non-spanking" methods being
tracked in the study are in fact humiliating, punishing, and likely
psychologically painful.

Hence what is being studied are TWO punitive methods opposing each
other, hardly a useful piece of information. All can remember the pain
of punishment regardless of whether or not it was physical or mental,
and the reactions.....from the list above....were also much the same.

Replacing one set of punishments for another hardly qualifies as
testing ALL non-spanking methods.

And other than the Embry study, a copy of which I have on my desk, from
about 30 years ago, showed, without intent to find (it was not the
point of the study) how "non-spanking" worked, but instead what mostly
non-punitive methods would produce.

Outside of a "time-out" planned into the routine....which as I recall
was used in only one instance with the population, non-punitive (which
of course included non-cp) produced some amazing results.

The issue was "street entries" that excuse for spanking that nearly all
compulsive spankers use. With no spanking and with no punishements but
simply instructions and verbal recognition of the wanted behavior when
performed, street entries dropped dramatically.

As I recall children who were punished had three times the street entry
attempts than those where were taught.

There will never be a definitive study done on the spanking issue for
the simple reason that one that would meet say medical research
standards would require destructive actions on some of the test
population. Spanking.

But it's not difficult to see, as I have in working with mentally ill
children, the differences between children raised without
punishment...I've known hundreds...and those raised with it. Not one
child that came into my care in a mental health setting was a
non-punished child. In fact non were non-spanked. Not a single one.

Kane




--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005, Stephanie wrote:


"Doan" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 20 Jul 2005, Stephanie wrote:


"Doan" wrote in message
...
On 19 Jul 2005, Hierophant wrote:

It is quit simple really

Spanking is about getting what you want from a child by threatening
violence if you don't get it. It begins there it ends there no
research need be done.

That sounds like the logic of the anti-spanking zealotS! ;-)


You are the one who keeps bringing this up in mk. So who is the zealot?

Let's see. I support the way you parent your own children whether with
spanking or not. Do you give other parents the same choice?

Doan



Do I have anything whatever to do with how someone else parents there
children?

I don't know. You are the one that accused me of being a zealot!

Doan

"Doan" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 21 Jul 2005, Stephanie wrote:


"Doan" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 20 Jul 2005, Stephanie wrote:


"Doan" wrote in message
...
On 19 Jul 2005, Hierophant wrote:

It is quit simple really

Spanking is about getting what you want from a child by threatening
violence if you don't get it. It begins there it ends there no
research need be done.

That sounds like the logic of the anti-spanking zealotS! ;-)


You are the one who keeps bringing this up in mk. So who is the
zealot?

Let's see. I support the way you parent your own children whether with
spanking or not. Do you give other parents the same choice?

Doan



Do I have anything whatever to do with how someone else parents there
children?

I don't know. You are the one that accused me of being a zealot!

So what if she did? Look at the thread title, which you created.

I'm wondering what the difference might be between a proponent
or advocate and a "zealot". Just curious.


P. Tierney