To spank or not to spank?

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To spank or not to spank?

Thu Jan 25, 8:22 AM ET

The Biblical injunction "spare the rod and spoil the child" has fallen
out of favor in recent decades.

Fifty years ago, most children were spanked. But the practice has
steadily declined over the years as parents found better ways to punish
bad behavior. Still, about half of American parents sometimes spank
their children. And, as long as it stops short of abuse, that should be
their own business.

California Assemblywoman Sally Lieber thinks otherwise. She says she'll
introduce a bill next week that would make it a misdemeanor for anyone
to use corporal punishment on children three years old and under.
Penalties could include up to a year in jail, a $1,000 fine or a
requirement to attend parenting classes. If approved, California would
become the first state to explicitly ban parents from smacking their
kids. This ordinarily wouldn't merit much attention. Only a tiny
fraction of the tens of thousands of bills state legislators submit
each year even get out of committee. But the passion the topic
generates has made it a conversation piece on network television, talk
radio and elsewhere, which makes it an idea worth killing before it
spreads.

Criminalizing what most people see as a private family matter and part
of normal parenting is wrongheaded and impossible to enforce. It would
impose an absurd level of government meddling in home life.

Let's be clear. Abuse that causes injury is wrong and already illegal.
Physicians, social workers, teachers and others who suspect a child has
been abused are required by law to report it to authorities. The
proposed bill draws no distinction, however, between degrees of
physical punishment, whether 10 lashes with a whip or a quick, mild
slap to focus the attention of a child about to run into oncoming
traffic. Nor could it easily do so.

Opponents of spanking say it's a form of violence that causes
psychological harm. Defenders call it an effective method of discipline
and say there's no evidence that occasional spanking damages a child's
development. The advice of the American Academy of Pediatrics - that
spanking should be used only in selective, infrequent situations, if at
all - seems about right.

The place to ban spanking is not in the home but in public schools,
where it's still allowed in about half of states, inviting trouble.
School spanking can become overzealous; it sends children the message
that physical abuse by authority figures can be acceptable and it can
be applied inconsistently. Education Department statistics show that
African-American students are twice as likely to be spanked as students
of other races.

Abusive violence against children, whether in the home or elsewhere, is
intolerable. But so is an intrusive government that would make
criminals of parents trying to do their best to raise their kids.

Copyright © 2007 USA TODAY, a division of Gannett Co. Inc.
Copyright © 2007 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved.
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/200...nkornottospank

On 26 Jan 2007, 0:- wrote:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/200...nkornottospank


Back to Story - Help
Yahoo! News
To spank or not to spank?

Thu Jan 25, 8:22 AM ET

The Biblical injunction "spare the rod and spoil the child" has fallen
out of favor in recent decades.

Fifty years ago, most children were spanked. But the practice has
steadily declined over the years as parents found better ways to punish
bad behavior. Still, about half of American parents sometimes spank
their children. And, as long as it stops short of abuse, that should be
their own business.

Not according to the research done by anti-spanking guru Straus. His
research, if you were to believe, said it is around 94%.

California Assemblywoman Sally Lieber thinks otherwise. She says she'll
introduce a bill next week that would make it a misdemeanor for anyone
to use corporal punishment on children three years old and under.
Penalties could include up to a year in jail, a $1,000 fine or a
requirement to attend parenting classes. If approved, California would
become the first state to explicitly ban parents from smacking their
kids. This ordinarily wouldn't merit much attention. Only a tiny
fraction of the tens of thousands of bills state legislators submit
each year even get out of committee. But the passion the topic
generates has made it a conversation piece on network television, talk
radio and elsewhere, which makes it an idea worth killing before it
spreads.

Criminalizing what most people see as a private family matter and part
of normal parenting is wrongheaded and impossible to enforce. It would
impose an absurd level of government meddling in home life.

Governement don't raise kids; parents do!

Let's be clear. Abuse that causes injury is wrong and already illegal.
Physicians, social workers, teachers and others who suspect a child has
been abused are required by law to report it to authorities. The
proposed bill draws no distinction, however, between degrees of
physical punishment, whether 10 lashes with a whip or a quick, mild
slap to focus the attention of a child about to run into oncoming
traffic. Nor could it easily do so.

Opponents of spanking say it's a form of violence that causes
psychological harm. Defenders call it an effective method of discipline
and say there's no evidence that occasional spanking damages a child's
development. The advice of the American Academy of Pediatrics - that
spanking should be used only in selective, infrequent situations, if at
all - seems about right.

Seem like a good advise.

The place to ban spanking is not in the home but in public schools,
where it's still allowed in about half of states, inviting trouble.
School spanking can become overzealous; it sends children the message
that physical abuse by authority figures can be acceptable and it can
be applied inconsistently. Education Department statistics show that
African-American students are twice as likely to be spanked as students
of other races.

And studies after studies have shown that spanking, at least for
African-American, do not correlate with bad outcomes.

Abusive violence against children, whether in the home or elsewhere, is
intolerable. But so is an intrusive government that would make
criminals of parents trying to do their best to raise their kids.

And more business for CPS.

Doan

Copyright © 2007 USA TODAY, a division of Gannett Co. Inc.
Copyright © 2007 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved.
Questions or Comments
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/200...nkornottospank

Doan wrote:
On 26 Jan 2007, 0:- wrote:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/200...nkornottospank


Back to Story - Help
Yahoo! News
To spank or not to spank?

Thu Jan 25, 8:22 AM ET

The Biblical injunction "spare the rod and spoil the child" has fallen
out of favor in recent decades.

Fifty years ago, most children were spanked. But the practice has
steadily declined over the years as parents found better ways to punish
bad behavior. Still, about half of American parents sometimes spank
their children. And, as long as it stops short of abuse, that should be
their own business.

Not according to the research done by anti-spanking guru Straus. His
research, if you were to believe, said it is around 94%.

And when was that Doan?

I've watched the rate fall over the years. It WAS high back then. It is
not now. My point exactly when I posted this, and comments I've been
making for years now.

The author also entertains the failed concept (proven by YOUR inability
to answer my simple question, The Question) that "it stops short of
abuse." predisposes that we have a universal standard, and ways for
parents to know precisely what is going on with their child
environmentally, internal and external, and how to guage the capacity of
the child to take hitting without injury.

Can't be done. And one day this little question of mine is going to be a
major factor in laws being passed.

No research can come up with definitive answers to that, The Question.

California Assemblywoman Sally Lieber thinks otherwise. She says she'll
introduce a bill next week that would make it a misdemeanor for anyone
to use corporal punishment on children three years old and under.
Penalties could include up to a year in jail, a $1,000 fine or a
requirement to attend parenting classes. If approved, California would
become the first state to explicitly ban parents from smacking their
kids. This ordinarily wouldn't merit much attention. Only a tiny
fraction of the tens of thousands of bills state legislators submit
each year even get out of committee. But the passion the topic
generates has made it a conversation piece on network television, talk
radio and elsewhere, which makes it an idea worth killing before it
spreads.

Criminalizing what most people see as a private family matter and part
of normal parenting is wrongheaded and impossible to enforce. It would
impose an absurd level of government meddling in home life.

Governement don't raise kids; parents do!

You are agreeing with a rant. Normal is not always *good.* You know
that. It was normal to cut off part of a slaves foot if he was caught
after trying to "run." All slave owners were pretty accepting of that as
a practice. Keeping people on the verge of starvation and working them
to death was considered just business as usual.

Let's be clear. Abuse that causes injury is wrong and already illegal.

Ah, the problem is spoken even by those that do not really understand it
and attempt to minimize it.
Physicians, social workers, teachers and others who suspect a child has
been abused are required by law to report it to authorities. The
proposed bill draws no distinction, however, between degrees of
physical punishment, whether 10 lashes with a whip or a quick, mild
slap to focus the attention of a child about to run into oncoming
traffic. Nor could it easily do so.

Guess Embry's conclusions need to be more widely circulated.

Opponents of spanking say it's a form of violence that causes
psychological harm. Defenders call it an effective method of discipline
and say there's no evidence that occasional spanking damages a child's
development.

Nonsense.

The advice of the American Academy of Pediatrics - that
spanking should be used only in selective, infrequent situations, if at
all - seems about right.

Seem like a good advise.

If all children were dogs, so that you could not be prosecuted for that
hitting, normally. Or all children were exactly the same so you could
have a standard of how hard to hit, how often to hit, and what class of
behaviors to hit for.

The place to ban spanking is not in the home but in public schools,
where it's still allowed in about half of states, inviting trouble.

As is being done, and conditions improving.

School spanking can become overzealous; it sends children the message
that physical abuse by authority figures can be acceptable and it can
be applied inconsistently.

And it does not improve grades.

Education Department statistics show that
African-American students are twice as likely to be spanked as students
of other races.

And studies after studies

Citations, please. Plural.

have shown that spanking, at least for
African-American, do not correlate with bad outcomes.

Show us these studies.

My understanding is that black men are way over represented in the
prison population. That's often considered a bad outcome. Some African
American people have awakened to this, and understand that the "the
child won't feel loved if I don't," is a rationalization, not a
scientific fact.

And this study shows something a bit different than you claim or those
"studied" you mention.

Notice this is one of those longitudinal studies you have claimed didn't
exist by harping to be show them. Not looking yourself, for fear of what
you'd find, Doan?

And, "Using data collected over a 6-year period on a sample of 1,039
European American children, 550 African American children, and 401
Hispanic children."

That's a fair sized sampling of the population, wouldn't you say, and
roughly in proportion racially to the population?

You just can't seem to help yourself helping others to show what a
stupid man you are, or liar. Or both.

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi...urnalCode=jomf

Journal of Marriage and Family
Volume 64 Issue 1 Page 40 - February 2002

To cite this article: Vonnie C McLoyd, Julia Smith (2002)
Physical Discipline and Behavior Problems in African American, European
American, and Hispanic Children: Emotional Support as a Moderator
Journal of Marriage and Family 64 (1), 40–53.
doi:10.1111/j.1741-3737.2002.00040.x

* Vonnie C. McLoyd11Center for Human Growth and Development,
University of Michigan, 300 North Ingalls, Ann Arbor, MI 48109
).
* Julia Smith11Center for Human Growth and Development, University
of Michigan, 300 North Ingalls, Ann Arbor, MI 48109 ).
1Center for Human Growth and Development, University of Michigan,
300 North Ingalls, Ann Arbor, MI 48109 ).

[[[ *** emphasis mine ]]]

Abstract

Using data collected over a 6-year period on a sample of 1,039 European
American children, 550 African American children, and 401 Hispanic
children from the children of the National Longitudinal Survey of Youth,
this study assessed whether maternal emotional support of the child
moderates the relation between spanking and behavior problems. Children
were 4–5 years of age in the first of 4 waves of data used (1988, 1990,
1992, 1994). At each wave, mothers reported their use of spanking and
rated their children's behavior problems. Maternal emotional support of
the child was based on interviewer observations conducted as part of the
Home Observation for Measurement of the Environment. *** For each of the
3 racial-ethnic groups, spanking predicted an increase in the level of
problem behavior over time, controlling for income-needs ratio and
maternal emotional support. Maternal emotional support moderated the
link between spanking and problem behavior. Spanking was associated with
an increase in behavior problems over time in the context of low levels
of emotional support, but not in the context of high levels of emotional
support. This pattern held for all 3 racial-ethnic groups. ...

What's that last sentence say?

Now what I'm going to do is SHOW you, Doan, that those with an ageda
will go so far as to LIE, publicly about outcomes of research. The same
study is describe by them as follows. And gives you some idea of how
well they CANNOT be trusted, and have an agenda, much like yours, that
they think excuses such lying as this:

Here's how a page of citations from a propaganda rag on the web
describes that study:

http://www.fotf.ca/tfn/family/articl...iscipline.html
....
8) Physical Discipline and Behavior Problems in African American,
European American, and Hispanic Children: Emotional Support as a Moderator

Vonni C. McLoyd, Julia Smith

This study found that Hispanic, African American, and European American
children have increased behavioral problems if they have low levels of
emotional support from their parents. Behaviour problems increase if
spanking occurs. However, those children who had high levels of support
from their parents and were spanked showed no relationship between
spanking and behavior problems. This article was published in the
Journal of Marriage and Family, Vol. 64, Number 1, Pages 40-53.
February, 2002. ...


Same researchers cited Doan. Notice the obvious lie by omission?

A bit of your style. Aren't you proud.

No mention whatsoever of what the authors/researchers ACTUALLY CONCLUDED.

The must have, to be generous in describing their interpretation, did a
bit of free association interpretation of this:

....For each of the 3 racial-ethnic groups, spanking predicted an
increase in the level of problem behavior over time, controlling for
income-needs ratio and maternal emotional support. Maternal emotional
support moderated the link between spanking and problem behavior.
Spanking was associated with an increase in behavior problems over time
in the context of low levels of emotional support, but not in the
context of high levels of emotional support. This pattern held for all 3
racial-ethnic groups. ......

Would you claim the spanking advocates are honest?

How can we trust their citations and possibly phony abstracts of the
other studies they list?

I found it fascinating, as well, that while they underlined the title,
as though it was a link to source, like other citations on the page, IT
WAS NOT A LINK.

Reminds me of tactics of certain other pro-spankers I know that post to
these newsgroups.

The tipoff they are phonies, willing to lie for their cause is that the
cited "Dr. Robert E. Larzelere critiques the conclusions of researcher
Joan Durrant on the welfare of children in Sweden since the ban." They
did NOT mention that Durrant came back and steamrollered the hack flat
as a mashed bug.

Abusive violence against children, whether in the home or elsewhere, is
intolerable. But so is an intrusive government that would make
criminals of parents trying to do their best to raise their kids.

And more business for CPS.

CPS has way too much business now. Caseloads are moving back to toward
their all time high in the late 80s. Mostly because of cutbacks in
staffing.


Let's get you more up to speed, and overcome some of your ignorance,
shall we then?

What we find, Doan, is that many of the claims made from those "many
studies" about black children that make that claim come with a caveat,
and that is related to variables.

Those little things you like to avoid.

Here's a typical one:

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/500007

Spanking in Early Childhood and Later Behavior Problems: A Prospective
Study of Infants and Young Toddlers
Slade EP, Wissow LS
Pediatrics. 2004;113(5):1321-1330

Corporal punishment in children is a controversial issue and one that
physicians should take seriously when counseling parents. It is by no
means uncommon. A sample of 991 American parents interviewed in 1995
revealed that 94% used some form of corporal punishment on children. ...

[[[ They footnote that figure as coming from Straus, NINETEEN NINETY
FOUR, Doan. Does that explain what I have been telling you for about 3
years...that it's coming down? To continue. ]]]

.... The authors of the study suggest that spanking may be less of a
marker of family tension in African American communities, meaning that
African American infants who were spanked bear less emotional scars that
produce later behavioral problems in school. However, it should be noted
that race was not the only difference between the different ethnic
groups in this study. In this study cohort, white families had higher
mean incomes, had achieved higher educational levels, and were more
likely to read to their children every day. Parents in these families
were also more likely to be married. Therefore, as in many issues in
which biopsychosocial factors loom large, it is difficult to separate
the cultural from other socioeconomic factors that contribute to the
difference between subgroups.

[[[ Negating the validity of the studies. ]]]

This study had several additional limitations. Only spanking by the
mother was measured, and other types of corporal punishment were not
analyzed. ...

I've always wondered if WHO spanked the child might not have a bearing
on later outcomes.

And here I share with you something you'll love, but is inconclusive and
solely the opinion of the authors, again, scientifically not supportable
by their own admissions.

.... However, given the conflicting results of spanking in different
cultural groups and the lack of data on the relative damage that could
be inflicted by spanking compared with other negative parenting
behaviors such as neglect or emotional abuse, it seems appropriate that
physicians provide a summary of the known facts regarding spanking and
leave the decision for corporal punishment up to the parents. The
emphasis in parental counseling should instead focus on positive things
-- support, affection, attention, and love -- that parents can do for
their children every day. ...

Yet, like so many that are unresolved, as is the best they can be if you
look at their entire conclusions, they still recommend NONE spanking and
support.

Support very like I've described as what I recommend as the more
powerful and effective parenting method over punishment methods.

They didn't EVEN say, "non-spanking discipline."

I've read the study the following comes from many times, and laughed at
you, Doan, when you make claims about it, and when I point out the
obvious, you ignore and go right on citing again as proof that spanking
works as well as non spanking.

Here, see if you can figure out the author of this comment on Straus,
and the infamous non CP alternative disciplines:

"Finally, the strongest causal evidence for detrimental outcomes of
spanking is based on methods that make alternative disciplinary tactics
appear equally detrimental in most cases. Of the 11 studies that
controlled partially for initially excessive misbehavior, only Straus et
al. (1997)6 found uniformly detrimental outcomes. The other 10 studies
either found beneficial outcomes (3 studies), a mixture of beneficial
and detrimental outcomes (2 studies), neutral outcomes (1 study), or a
mixture of detrimental and neutral outcomes (4 studies). But Larzelere
and Smith (2000)7 replicated and extended Straus et al.’s (1997) study,
using the same publicly available data set. In general, they found
similar increases in antisocial behavior two years later for those who
used four alternative disciplinary tactics frequently: grounding,
removing privileges, docking allowances, or sending the child to his or
her room. Further, these apparently detrimental outcomes for spanking
and the four alternatives all disappeared after we did a better job of
taking the initial level of excessive misbehavior into account."

And the last sentence is a laugh riot. What kind of "science" is that?
Silly?

Doan, the author, one of your favorites, AND Straus, PROVE and support,
that NONE PUNITIVE IS THE BETTER WAY TO GO, BECAUSE PUNITIVE METHODS OF
BOTH KINDS HAVE A HIGH RATE OF AGGRESSION, while none punitive have so
little no one has really bother with much research on it. It's simply
understood.

But then, R R R R there IS that Embry study, eh?

Doan

Yes, you are certainly that.

Kane
Copyright ? 2007 USA TODAY, a division of Gannett Co. Inc.
Copyright ? 2007 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved.
Questions or Comments
Privacy Policy -Terms of Service - Copyright/IP Policy - Ad Feedback

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/200...nkornottospank

On Fri, 26 Jan 2007, 0:- wrote:

Doan wrote:
On 26 Jan 2007, 0:- wrote:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/200...nkornottospank


Back to Story - Help
Yahoo! News
To spank or not to spank?

Thu Jan 25, 8:22 AM ET

The Biblical injunction "spare the rod and spoil the child" has fallen
out of favor in recent decades.

Fifty years ago, most children were spanked. But the practice has
steadily declined over the years as parents found better ways to punish
bad behavior. Still, about half of American parents sometimes spank
their children. And, as long as it stops short of abuse, that should be
their own business.

Not according to the research done by anti-spanking guru Straus. His
research, if you were to believe, said it is around 94%.

And when was that Doan?

I've watched the rate fall over the years. It WAS high back then. It is
not now. My point exactly when I posted this, and comments I've been
making for years now.

The author also entertains the failed concept (proven by YOUR inability
to answer my simple question, The Question) that "it stops short of
abuse." predisposes that we have a universal standard, and ways for
parents to know precisely what is going on with their child
environmentally, internal and external, and how to guage the capacity of
the child to take hitting without injury.

Can't be done. And one day this little question of mine is going to be a
major factor in laws being passed.

No research can come up with definitive answers to that, The Question.

The same can be said about talking to your kids. "it stops short of
VERBAL abuse"

California Assemblywoman Sally Lieber thinks otherwise. She says she'll
introduce a bill next week that would make it a misdemeanor for anyone
to use corporal punishment on children three years old and under.
Penalties could include up to a year in jail, a $1,000 fine or a
requirement to attend parenting classes. If approved, California would
become the first state to explicitly ban parents from smacking their
kids. This ordinarily wouldn't merit much attention. Only a tiny
fraction of the tens of thousands of bills state legislators submit
each year even get out of committee. But the passion the topic
generates has made it a conversation piece on network television, talk
radio and elsewhere, which makes it an idea worth killing before it
spreads.

Criminalizing what most people see as a private family matter and part
of normal parenting is wrongheaded and impossible to enforce. It would
impose an absurd level of government meddling in home life.

Governement don't raise kids; parents do!

You are agreeing with a rant. Normal is not always *good.* You know
that. It was normal to cut off part of a slaves foot if he was caught
after trying to "run." All slave owners were pretty accepting of that as
a practice. Keeping people on the verge of starvation and working them
to death was considered just business as usual.

Is that what you see as parent/child relationship? Do you treat your
child like a slave?

Let's be clear. Abuse that causes injury is wrong and already illegal.

Ah, the problem is spoken even by those that do not really understand it
and attempt to minimize it.

Like you minimize Ron spanking his kids? ;-)

Physicians, social workers, teachers and others who suspect a child has
been abused are required by law to report it to authorities. The
proposed bill draws no distinction, however, between degrees of
physical punishment, whether 10 lashes with a whip or a quick, mild
slap to focus the attention of a child about to run into oncoming
traffic. Nor could it easily do so.

Guess Embry's conclusions need to be more widely circulated.

Yup! Kane. Please include what he said about the anti-spanking zealotS!
I DARE YOU! I DOUBLE DARE YOU! ;-)

Opponents of spanking say it's a form of violence that causes
psychological harm. Defenders call it an effective method of discipline
and say there's no evidence that occasional spanking damages a child's
development.

Nonsense.

To a stupid liar lie you!

The advice of the American Academy of Pediatrics - that
spanking should be used only in selective, infrequent situations, if at
all - seems about right.

Seem like a good advise.

If all children were dogs, so that you could not be prosecuted for that
hitting, normally. Or all children were exactly the same so you could
have a standard of how hard to hit, how often to hit, and what class of
behaviors to hit for.

How hard did you hit you own children, Kane? Do you know where "the line"
is? ;-)

The place to ban spanking is not in the home but in public schools,
where it's still allowed in about half of states, inviting trouble.

As is being done, and conditions improving.

School spanking can become overzealous; it sends children the message
that physical abuse by authority figures can be acceptable and it can
be applied inconsistently.

And it does not improve grades.

Education Department statistics show that
African-American students are twice as likely to be spanked as students
of other races.

And studies after studies

Citations, please. Plural.

Already did, it's in the "archives"!

have shown that spanking, at least for
African-American, do not correlate with bad outcomes.

Show us these studies.

Already did!

My understanding is that black men are way over represented in the
prison population. That's often considered a bad outcome. Some African
American people have awakened to this, and understand that the "the
child won't feel loved if I don't," is a rationalization, not a
scientific fact.

They are over represented in the NFL, NBA, Olympics medal winners....
also.

And this study shows something a bit different than you claim or those
"studied" you mention.

Prove it!

Notice this is one of those longitudinal studies you have claimed didn't
exist by harping to be show them. Not looking yourself, for fear of what
you'd find, Doan?

And, "Using data collected over a 6-year period on a sample of 1,039
European American children, 550 African American children, and 401
Hispanic children."

That's a fair sized sampling of the population, wouldn't you say, and
roughly in proportion racially to the population?

You just can't seem to help yourself helping others to show what a
stupid man you are, or liar. Or both.

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi...urnalCode=jomf

Journal of Marriage and Family
Volume 64 Issue 1 Page 40 - February 2002

To cite this article: Vonnie C McLoyd, Julia Smith (2002)
Physical Discipline and Behavior Problems in African American, European
American, and Hispanic Children: Emotional Support as a Moderator
Journal of Marriage and Family 64 (1), 40–53.
doi:10.1111/j.1741-3737.2002.00040.x

* Vonnie C. McLoyd11Center for Human Growth and Development,
University of Michigan, 300 North Ingalls, Ann Arbor, MI 48109
).
* Julia Smith11Center for Human Growth and Development, University
of Michigan, 300 North Ingalls, Ann Arbor, MI 48109 ).
1Center for Human Growth and Development, University of Michigan,
300 North Ingalls, Ann Arbor, MI 48109 ).

[[[ *** emphasis mine ]]]

Abstract

Using data collected over a 6-year period on a sample of 1,039 European
American children, 550 African American children, and 401 Hispanic
children from the children of the National Longitudinal Survey of Youth,
this study assessed whether maternal emotional support of the child
moderates the relation between spanking and behavior problems. Children
were 4–5 years of age in the first of 4 waves of data used (1988, 1990,
1992, 1994). At each wave, mothers reported their use of spanking and
rated their children's behavior problems. Maternal emotional support of
the child was based on interviewer observations conducted as part of the
Home Observation for Measurement of the Environment. *** For each of the
3 racial-ethnic groups, spanking predicted an increase in the level of
problem behavior over time, controlling for income-needs ratio and
maternal emotional support. Maternal emotional support moderated the
link between spanking and problem behavior. Spanking was associated with
an increase in behavior problems over time in the context of low levels
of emotional support, but not in the context of high levels of emotional
support. This pattern held for all 3 racial-ethnic groups. ...

What's that last sentence say?

What the sentence before it says, Kane?

Now what I'm going to do is SHOW you, Doan, that those with an ageda
will go so far as to LIE, publicly about outcomes of research. The same
study is describe by them as follows. And gives you some idea of how
well they CANNOT be trusted, and have an agenda, much like yours, that
they think excuses such lying as this:

And those that are STUPID, like you, seem not to understand what they
read. ;-)

Here's how a page of citations from a propaganda rag on the web
describes that study:

http://www.fotf.ca/tfn/family/articl...iscipline.html
...
8) Physical Discipline and Behavior Problems in African American,
European American, and Hispanic Children: Emotional Support as a Moderator

Vonni C. McLoyd, Julia Smith

This study found that Hispanic, African American, and European American
children have increased behavioral problems if they have low levels of
emotional support from their parents. Behaviour problems increase if
spanking occurs. However, those children who had high levels of support
from their parents and were spanked showed no relationship between
spanking and behavior problems. This article was published in the
Journal of Marriage and Family, Vol. 64, Number 1, Pages 40-53.
February, 2002. ...

Did you miss the part about emotional support? "...no relationship
between spanking and behavior problems." Thanks, Kane. You have
just proved that it's not the spanking perse but how the spanking
is carried out.


Same researchers cited Doan. Notice the obvious lie by omission?

Notice your STUPIDITY!

A bit of your style. Aren't you proud.

Yup! Just like you proved yourself to be a STUPID LIAR!

No mention whatsoever of what the authors/researchers ACTUALLY CONCLUDED.

The must have, to be generous in describing their interpretation, did a
bit of free association interpretation of this:

...For each of the 3 racial-ethnic groups, spanking predicted an
increase in the level of problem behavior over time, controlling for
income-needs ratio and maternal emotional support. Maternal emotional
support moderated the link between spanking and problem behavior.
Spanking was associated with an increase in behavior problems over time
in the context of low levels of emotional support, but not in the
context of high levels of emotional support. This pattern held for all 3
racial-ethnic groups. ......

Yup! Even for white people too - emotional support!

Would you claim the spanking advocates are honest?

How can we trust their citations and possibly phony abstracts of the
other studies they list?

I found it fascinating, as well, that while they underlined the title,
as though it was a link to source, like other citations on the page, IT
WAS NOT A LINK.

It's in your file cabinet! ;-)

Reminds me of tactics of certain other pro-spankers I know that post to
these newsgroups.

The tipoff they are phonies, willing to lie for their cause is that the
cited "Dr. Robert E. Larzelere critiques the conclusions of researcher
Joan Durrant on the welfare of children in Sweden since the ban." They
did NOT mention that Durrant came back and steamrollered the hack flat
as a mashed bug.

Read his research ina "peer-reviewed" journal, Kane? ;-)

Abusive violence against children, whether in the home or elsewhere, is
intolerable. But so is an intrusive government that would make
criminals of parents trying to do their best to raise their kids.

And more business for CPS.

CPS has way too much business now. Caseloads are moving back to toward
their all time high in the late 80s. Mostly because of cutbacks in
staffing.

So they will more or less business of spanking is outlawed, Kane?


Let's get you more up to speed, and overcome some of your ignorance,
shall we then?

Sure give me a breakdown of the funds they get over the years, Kane?
I like to know where the money went.

What we find, Doan, is that many of the claims made from those "many
studies" about black children that make that claim come with a caveat,
and that is related to variables.

You meant like the International study you claim to support a "x leads to
y" relationship, Kane. Did you read the caveat in that one? Wanna share
them with us? I DARE YOU! I DOUBLE DARE YOU! Hihihi!

Those little things you like to avoid.

And things that I like to expose, like you and your stupidity! ;-)

Here's a typical one:

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/500007

Spanking in Early Childhood and Later Behavior Problems: A Prospective
Study of Infants and Young Toddlers
Slade EP, Wissow LS
Pediatrics. 2004;113(5):1321-1330

Do you have a PDF file of the actual study, Kane? Can I have a copy?
Or will you send it to Mexico again? ;-)

Corporal punishment in children is a controversial issue and one that
physicians should take seriously when counseling parents. It is by no
means uncommon. A sample of 991 American parents interviewed in 1995
revealed that 94% used some form of corporal punishment on children. ...

Damn that 94% percent again. So much for the claim that it has reduced
to about half! You didn't make that claim, did you Kane? ;-)

[[[ They footnote that figure as coming from Straus, NINETEEN NINETY
FOUR, Doan. Does that explain what I have been telling you for about 3
years...that it's coming down? To continue. ]]]

Hihihi! Sound like your claim that crime were down during these same
period right, Kane?

... The authors of the study suggest that spanking may be less of a
marker of family tension in African American communities, meaning that
African American infants who were spanked bear less emotional scars that
produce later behavioral problems in school. However, it should be noted
that race was not the only difference between the different ethnic
groups in this study. In this study cohort, white families had higher
mean incomes, had achieved higher educational levels, and were more
likely to read to their children every day. Parents in these families
were also more likely to be married. Therefore, as in many issues in
which biopsychosocial factors loom large, it is difficult to separate
the cultural from other socioeconomic factors that contribute to the
difference between subgroups.

[[[ Negating the validity of the studies. ]]]

This study had several additional limitations. Only spanking by the
mother was measured, and other types of corporal punishment were not
analyzed. ...

Hihihi! limitations, Kane? Did they analyze non-cp alternatives too,
Kane?

I've always wondered if WHO spanked the child might not have a bearing
on later outcomes.

And here I share with you something you'll love, but is inconclusive and
solely the opinion of the authors, again, scientifically not supportable
by their own admissions.

... However, given the conflicting results of spanking in different
cultural groups and the lack of data on the relative damage that could
be inflicted by spanking compared with other negative parenting
behaviors such as neglect or emotional abuse, it seems appropriate that
physicians provide a summary of the known facts regarding spanking and
leave the decision for corporal punishment up to the parents. The
emphasis in parental counseling should instead focus on positive things
-- support, affection, attention, and love -- that parents can do for
their children every day. ...

Yet, like so many that are unresolved, as is the best they can be if you
look at their entire conclusions, they still recommend NONE spanking and
support.

Opinion. Opinion.

Support very like I've described as what I recommend as the more
powerful and effective parenting method over punishment methods.

They didn't EVEN say, "non-spanking discipline."

I've read the study the following comes from many times, and laughed at
you, Doan, when you make claims about it, and when I point out the
obvious, you ignore and go right on citing again as proof that spanking
works as well as non spanking.

Hihihi! I laugh at the way you try to fit that square anti-spanking
peg into the round hole!

Here, see if you can figure out the author of this comment on Straus,
and the infamous non CP alternative disciplines:

"Finally, the strongest causal evidence for detrimental outcomes of
spanking is based on methods that make alternative disciplinary tactics
appear equally detrimental in most cases. Of the 11 studies that
controlled partially for initially excessive misbehavior, only Straus et
al. (1997)6 found uniformly detrimental outcomes. The other 10 studies
either found beneficial outcomes (3 studies), a mixture of beneficial
and detrimental outcomes (2 studies), neutral outcomes (1 study), or a
mixture of detrimental and neutral outcomes (4 studies). But Larzelere
and Smith (2000)7 replicated and extended Straus et al.’s (1997) study,
using the same publicly available data set. In general, they found
similar increases in antisocial behavior two years later for those who
used four alternative disciplinary tactics frequently: grounding,
removing privileges, docking allowances, or sending the child to his or
her room. Further, these apparently detrimental outcomes for spanking
and the four alternatives all disappeared after we did a better job of
taking the initial level of excessive misbehavior into account."

And the last sentence is a laugh riot. What kind of "science" is that?
Silly?

Hihihi! You too STUPID to understand what you read right, Kane.

Doan, the author, one of your favorites, AND Straus, PROVE and support,
that NONE PUNITIVE IS THE BETTER WAY TO GO, BECAUSE PUNITIVE METHODS OF
BOTH KINDS HAVE A HIGH RATE OF AGGRESSION, while none punitive have so
little no one has really bother with much research on it. It's simply
understood.

So we should not punish children right, Kane? Are you calling for a
ban on all punishment? Get rid of the "jay-vee"?

But then, R R R R there IS that Embry study, eh?

The one that has NO PUNISHMENT, right? ;-) Remember what Embry said
about the "extremes"?


Doan

Yes, you are certainly that.

Kane

Yes, you are certainly STUPID!

Doan

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On Fri, 26 Jan 2007, 0:- wrote:

And it does not improve grades.

Education Department statistics show that
African-American students are twice as likely to be spanked as students
of other races.

And studies after studies

Citations, please. Plural.

http://www.blackwomenshealth.com/Bei...d%20Parent.htm

"What must be said about spanking is that it exists in cultural contexts.
For example, scientific studies show that many White middle and upper
class children who receive physical punishment regularly become aggressive
as adolescents and as adults. The data for Black children, regardless of
economic background, suggests the opposite- that not using physical
punishment is associated with behavior problems. Further, some suggests
that White middle class physical discipline suggests an out-of control
authoritarian home while the lack of physical discipline among African
American parents implies neglectful parenting (see Deater-Deckard, Bates,
Dodge, & Pettit, 1996). Clearly culture is an important factor in how
physical discipline is understood.

An important factor in the debate on different forms of punishment is the
perception that Black children have regarding their punishment. When
parents are viewed as caring and not simply angry, children tend to
internalize the message that there is a consequence, good and bad, for
their behaviors. This is where showing warmth while being controlling is
absolutely necessary. Regardless, spanking is a decision that parents
must make individually. The most important factor is balancing warmth and
firmness."

Doan

Doan, You proved him wrong, but Kane will never admit it.

On 27 Jan 2007, Greegor wrote:

Doan, You proved him wrong, but Kane will never admit it.

"The truth will set you free." Kane is still a slave - it is legal,
according to him. ;-)

Doan

You could say that Kane is a slave to rhetoric also.

"0:-" wrote in message
oups.com...

AGAIN Kane goes to his "SCIENTIFIC JOURNALS"!! :-)))))))))

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/200...nkornottospank


Back to Story - Help
Yahoo! News
To spank or not to spank?

Thu Jan 25, 8:22 AM ET

The Biblical injunction "spare the rod and spoil the child" has fallen
out of favor in recent decades.

Fifty years ago, most children were spanked. But the practice has
steadily declined over the years as parents found better ways to punish
bad behavior. Still, about half of American parents sometimes spank
their children. And, as long as it stops short of abuse, that should be
their own business.

California Assemblywoman Sally Lieber thinks otherwise. She says she'll
introduce a bill next week that would make it a misdemeanor for anyone
to use corporal punishment on children three years old and under.
Penalties could include up to a year in jail, a $1,000 fine or a
requirement to attend parenting classes. If approved, California would
become the first state to explicitly ban parents from smacking their
kids. This ordinarily wouldn't merit much attention. Only a tiny
fraction of the tens of thousands of bills state legislators submit
each year even get out of committee. But the passion the topic
generates has made it a conversation piece on network television, talk
radio and elsewhere, which makes it an idea worth killing before it
spreads.

Criminalizing what most people see as a private family matter and part
of normal parenting is wrongheaded and impossible to enforce. It would
impose an absurd level of government meddling in home life.

Let's be clear. Abuse that causes injury is wrong and already illegal.
Physicians, social workers, teachers and others who suspect a child has
been abused are required by law to report it to authorities. The
proposed bill draws no distinction, however, between degrees of
physical punishment, whether 10 lashes with a whip or a quick, mild
slap to focus the attention of a child about to run into oncoming
traffic. Nor could it easily do so.

Opponents of spanking say it's a form of violence that causes
psychological harm. Defenders call it an effective method of discipline
and say there's no evidence that occasional spanking damages a child's
development. The advice of the American Academy of Pediatrics - that
spanking should be used only in selective, infrequent situations, if at
all - seems about right.

The place to ban spanking is not in the home but in public schools,
where it's still allowed in about half of states, inviting trouble.
School spanking can become overzealous; it sends children the message
that physical abuse by authority figures can be acceptable and it can
be applied inconsistently. Education Department statistics show that
African-American students are twice as likely to be spanked as students
of other races.

Abusive violence against children, whether in the home or elsewhere, is
intolerable. But so is an intrusive government that would make
criminals of parents trying to do their best to raise their kids.

Copyright © 2007 USA TODAY, a division of Gannett Co. Inc.
Copyright © 2007 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved.
Questions or Comments
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/200...nkornottospank

Doan wrote:
On Fri, 26 Jan 2007, 0:- wrote:

Doan wrote:
On 26 Jan 2007, 0:- wrote:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/200...nkornottospank


Back to Story - Help
Yahoo! News
To spank or not to spank?

Thu Jan 25, 8:22 AM ET

The Biblical injunction "spare the rod and spoil the child" has fallen
out of favor in recent decades.

Fifty years ago, most children were spanked. But the practice has
steadily declined over the years as parents found better ways to punish
bad behavior. Still, about half of American parents sometimes spank
their children. And, as long as it stops short of abuse, that should be
their own business.

Not according to the research done by anti-spanking guru Straus. His
research, if you were to believe, said it is around 94%.
And when was that Doan?

I've watched the rate fall over the years. It WAS high back then. It is
not now. My point exactly when I posted this, and comments I've been
making for years now.

The author also entertains the failed concept (proven by YOUR inability
to answer my simple question, The Question) that "it stops short of
abuse." predisposes that we have a universal standard, and ways for
parents to know precisely what is going on with their child
environmentally, internal and external, and how to guage the capacity of
the child to take hitting without injury.

Can't be done. And one day this little question of mine is going to be a
major factor in laws being passed.

No research can come up with definitive answers to that, The Question.

The same can be said about talking to your kids. "it stops short of
VERBAL abuse"

There are so many contusions, broken bones, from verbals, right?

California Assemblywoman Sally Lieber thinks otherwise. She says she'll
introduce a bill next week that would make it a misdemeanor for anyone
to use corporal punishment on children three years old and under.
Penalties could include up to a year in jail, a $1,000 fine or a
requirement to attend parenting classes. If approved, California would
become the first state to explicitly ban parents from smacking their
kids. This ordinarily wouldn't merit much attention. Only a tiny
fraction of the tens of thousands of bills state legislators submit
each year even get out of committee. But the passion the topic
generates has made it a conversation piece on network television, talk
radio and elsewhere, which makes it an idea worth killing before it
spreads.

Criminalizing what most people see as a private family matter and part
of normal parenting is wrongheaded and impossible to enforce. It would
impose an absurd level of government meddling in home life.

Governement don't raise kids; parents do!
You are agreeing with a rant. Normal is not always *good.* You know
that. It was normal to cut off part of a slaves foot if he was caught
after trying to "run." All slave owners were pretty accepting of that as
a practice. Keeping people on the verge of starvation and working them
to death was considered just business as usual.

Is that what you see as parent/child relationship? Do you treat your
child like a slave?

Metaphor. Those children that are hit are being treated just as slaves
were.

Your attempt to turn it into a personal attack is duly noted.

Let's be clear. Abuse that causes injury is wrong and already illegal.
Ah, the problem is spoken even by those that do not really understand it
and attempt to minimize it.

Like you minimize Ron spanking his kids? ;-)

Can't argue the issue, eh?

You don't know what I've said to Ron one way or the other.

This is a lie you foist by attempting to mislead from assumption.

Your attempt to triangulate is duly noted. Your parent's taught you well.

Physicians, social workers, teachers and others who suspect a child has
been abused are required by law to report it to authorities. The
proposed bill draws no distinction, however, between degrees of
physical punishment, whether 10 lashes with a whip or a quick, mild
slap to focus the attention of a child about to run into oncoming
traffic. Nor could it easily do so.
Guess Embry's conclusions need to be more widely circulated.

Yup! Kane. Please include what he said about the anti-spanking zealotS!
I DARE YOU! I DOUBLE DARE YOU! ;-)

You can't?

And he didn't mention zealots.

Opponents of spanking say it's a form of violence that causes
psychological harm. Defenders call it an effective method of discipline
and say there's no evidence that occasional spanking damages a child's
development.
Nonsense.

To a stupid liar lie you!

You begin with a personal attack and continue it. I thought you only
gave as good as you got plus one.

Were you lying?

The advice of the American Academy of Pediatrics - that
spanking should be used only in selective, infrequent situations, if at
all - seems about right.

Seem like a good advise.
If all children were dogs, so that you could not be prosecuted for that
hitting, normally. Or all children were exactly the same so you could
have a standard of how hard to hit, how often to hit, and what class of
behaviors to hit for.

How hard did you hit you own children, Kane? Do you know where "the line"
is? ;-)

Can't argue the point can you Doan?

How does whether or not I could have any bearing on my challenge?

I can't jump flat footed six feet straight up either. That I cannot has
no bearing on whether others can or not.

They can't.

The place to ban spanking is not in the home but in public schools,
where it's still allowed in about half of states, inviting trouble.
As is being done, and conditions improving.

School spanking can become overzealous; it sends children the message
that physical abuse by authority figures can be acceptable and it can
be applied inconsistently.
And it does not improve grades.

Education Department statistics show that
African-American students are twice as likely to be spanked as students
of other races.

And studies after studies
Citations, please. Plural.

Already did, it's in the "archives"!

R R RR..... sure, Doan. I posted citations for my claim.

You special are you?

have shown that spanking, at least for
African-American, do not correlate with bad outcomes.
Show us these studies.

Already did!

Then I should not have posted this and just said find it yourself, and
made an unsupported claim.

That's what you are doing.

My understanding is that black men are way over represented in the
prison population. That's often considered a bad outcome. Some African
American people have awakened to this, and understand that the "the
child won't feel loved if I don't," is a rationalization, not a
scientific fact.

They are over represented in the NFL, NBA, Olympics medal winners....
also.

And this effects the prison population issue how?

And this study shows something a bit different than you claim or those
"studied" you mention.

Prove it!

Not unless you post the studies you claim.

I'm not going to argue against missing data with data I've presented.

And that leads us to assume there isn't what you claimed.


Notice this is one of those longitudinal studies you have claimed didn't
exist by harping to be show them. Not looking yourself, for fear of what
you'd find, Doan?

And, "Using data collected over a 6-year period on a sample of 1,039
European American children, 550 African American children, and 401
Hispanic children."

That's a fair sized sampling of the population, wouldn't you say, and
roughly in proportion racially to the population?

You just can't seem to help yourself helping others to show what a
stupid man you are, or liar. Or both.

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi...urnalCode=jomf

Journal of Marriage and Family
Volume 64 Issue 1 Page 40 - February 2002

To cite this article: Vonnie C McLoyd, Julia Smith (2002)
Physical Discipline and Behavior Problems in African American, European
American, and Hispanic Children: Emotional Support as a Moderator
Journal of Marriage and Family 64 (1), 40?53.
doi:10.1111/j.1741-3737.2002.00040.x

* Vonnie C. McLoyd11Center for Human Growth and Development,
University of Michigan, 300 North Ingalls, Ann Arbor, MI 48109
).
* Julia Smith11Center for Human Growth and Development, University
of Michigan, 300 North Ingalls, Ann Arbor, MI 48109 ).
1Center for Human Growth and Development, University of Michigan,
300 North Ingalls, Ann Arbor, MI 48109 ).

[[[ *** emphasis mine ]]]

Abstract

Using data collected over a 6-year period on a sample of 1,039 European
American children, 550 African American children, and 401 Hispanic
children from the children of the National Longitudinal Survey of Youth,
this study assessed whether maternal emotional support of the child
moderates the relation between spanking and behavior problems. Children
were 4?5 years of age in the first of 4 waves of data used (1988, 1990,
1992, 1994). At each wave, mothers reported their use of spanking and
rated their children's behavior problems. Maternal emotional support of
the child was based on interviewer observations conducted as part of the
Home Observation for Measurement of the Environment. *** For each of the
3 racial-ethnic groups, spanking predicted an increase in the level of
problem behavior over time, controlling for income-needs ratio and
maternal emotional support. Maternal emotional support moderated the
link between spanking and problem behavior. Spanking was associated with
an increase in behavior problems over time in the context of low levels
of emotional support, but not in the context of high levels of emotional
support. This pattern held for all 3 racial-ethnic groups. ...

What's that last sentence say?

What the sentence before it says, Kane?

Now what I'm going to do is SHOW you, Doan, that those with an ageda
will go so far as to LIE, publicly about outcomes of research. The same
study is describe by them as follows. And gives you some idea of how
well they CANNOT be trusted, and have an agenda, much like yours, that
they think excuses such lying as this:

And those that are STUPID, like you, seem not to understand what they
read. ;-)

Here's how a page of citations from a propaganda rag on the web
describes that study:

http://www.fotf.ca/tfn/family/articl...iscipline.html
...
8) Physical Discipline and Behavior Problems in African American,
European American, and Hispanic Children: Emotional Support as a Moderator

Vonni C. McLoyd, Julia Smith

This study found that Hispanic, African American, and European American
children have increased behavioral problems if they have low levels of
emotional support from their parents. Behaviour problems increase if
spanking occurs. However, those children who had high levels of support
from their parents and were spanked showed no relationship between
spanking and behavior problems. This article was published in the
Journal of Marriage and Family, Vol. 64, Number 1, Pages 40-53.
February, 2002. ...

Did you miss the part about emotional support? "...no relationship
between spanking and behavior problems." Thanks, Kane. You have
just proved that it's not the spanking perse but how the spanking
is carried out.

Not in the least. And did you miss that otherwise they flat out lied?

Same researchers cited Doan. Notice the obvious lie by omission?

Notice your STUPIDITY!

Notice "This study found that Hispanic, African American, and European
American children have increased behavioral problems if they have low
levels of emotional support from their parents. Behaviour problems
increase if spanking occurs," concealed by the pro spank people in
citation, mind you.

Notice that many black families do provide strong emotional support and
that could be what's also effecting athletes? And that it's one of the
avenues more open to Black people to compete in. Naturally what's open
is where they will go.

You aren't very bright are you, Doan?

A bit of your style. Aren't you proud.

Yup! Just like you proved yourself to be a STUPID LIAR!

Well, so far in this post, you've attempted to claim I minimize Ron's
spanking of his children. You do not know what I may or may not have
said to him about that.

Thus, Doan, you fabricated that to mislead. A lie.

You have claimed studies that you just refused to supply. And unless you
do, you carry the burden of being thought a liar, possibly.

No mention whatsoever of what the authors/researchers ACTUALLY CONCLUDED.

No response, Doan? The key issue, lying by prospankers, and you don't
want to address it?

That's dishonest, Doan.

The must have, to be generous in describing their interpretation, did a
bit of free association interpretation of this:

...For each of the 3 racial-ethnic groups, spanking predicted an
increase in the level of problem behavior over time, controlling for
income-needs ratio and maternal emotional support. Maternal emotional
support moderated the link between spanking and problem behavior.
Spanking was associated with an increase in behavior problems over time
in the context of low levels of emotional support, but not in the
context of high levels of emotional support. This pattern held for all 3
racial-ethnic groups. ......

Yup! Even for white people too - emotional support!

Yep, and for all three

"This study found that Hispanic, African American, and European American
children have increased behavioral problems if they have low levels of
emotional support from their parents. Behaviour problems increase if
spanking occurs."

"Behaviour problems increase if
spanking occurs.""

Would you claim the spanking advocates are honest?

No answer, Doan?

Only argue the points you think you can win by misdirection and other
dishonest methods of debate?

Can't deal with the main issue?

Can't debate the main issue?

You are very predictable. Same dodges and we all knew you would do it
again.

How can we trust their citations and possibly phony abstracts of the
other studies they list?

I found it fascinating, as well, that while they underlined the title,
as though it was a link to source, like other citations on the page, IT
WAS NOT A LINK.

It's in your file cabinet! ;-)

Can't debate the issues, Doan?

Reminds me of tactics of certain other pro-spankers I know that post to
these newsgroups.

The tipoff they are phonies, willing to lie for their cause is that the
cited "Dr. Robert E. Larzelere critiques the conclusions of researcher
Joan Durrant on the welfare of children in Sweden since the ban." They
did NOT mention that Durrant came back and steamrollered the hack flat
as a mashed bug.

Read his research ina "peer-reviewed" journal, Kane? ;-)

What peer reviewed journal, Doan?

Did you wish to make a claim?

Abusive violence against children, whether in the home or elsewhere, is
intolerable. But so is an intrusive government that would make
criminals of parents trying to do their best to raise their kids.

And more business for CPS.
CPS has way too much business now. Caseloads are moving back to toward
their all time high in the late 80s. Mostly because of cutbacks in
staffing.

So they will more or less business of spanking is outlawed, Kane?

?

Let's get you more up to speed, and overcome some of your ignorance,
shall we then?

Sure give me a breakdown of the funds they get over the years, Kane?
I like to know where the money went.

Not until you start debating by offering facts to support your claims,
Doan.

Don't ask for what you aren't willing to provide.

What we find, Doan, is that many of the claims made from those "many
studies" about black children that make that claim come with a caveat,
and that is related to variables.

You meant like the International study you claim to support a "x leads to
y" relationship, Kane. Did you read the caveat in that one? Wanna share
them with us? I DARE YOU! I DOUBLE DARE YOU! Hihihi!

It's a rare piece of research that does not come with a somewhat
standard caveat about not drawing conclusions the authors of the report
did not.

Those little things you like to avoid.

And things that I like to expose, like you and your stupidity! ;-)

Your score? = 0

Here's a typical one:

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/500007

Spanking in Early Childhood and Later Behavior Problems: A Prospective
Study of Infants and Young Toddlers
Slade EP, Wissow LS
Pediatrics. 2004;113(5):1321-1330

Do you have a PDF file of the actual study, Kane? Can I have a copy?
Or will you send it to Mexico again? ;-)

Nice to see you so obviously confess you can't debate the issues as
presented.

Corporal punishment in children is a controversial issue and one that
physicians should take seriously when counseling parents. It is by no
means uncommon. A sample of 991 American parents interviewed in 1995
revealed that 94% used some form of corporal punishment on children. ...

Damn that 94% percent again. So much for the claim that it has reduced
to about half! You didn't make that claim, did you Kane? ;-)

1995.

And yes, recently I mentioned it was nearing 50%.

It appears the message is getting through.

.... Most parents said they use bare hands if they spank a child, though
roughly one-third of parents in a 1995 Gallup poll said they had used
''a belt, hairbrush, stick, or some other hard object" to strike their
child's bottom. ...

(see another post, on "The Rod, redux" for the entire article that was
taken from).


[[[ They footnote that figure as coming from Straus, NINETEEN NINETY
FOUR, Doan. Does that explain what I have been telling you for about 3
years...that it's coming down? To continue. ]]]

Hihihi! Sound like your claim that crime were down during these same
period right, Kane?

That's not the issue you brought up, Doan. Why would you want to
suddenly change the subject 0;-}

... The authors of the study suggest that spanking may be less of a
marker of family tension in African American communities, meaning that
African American infants who were spanked bear less emotional scars that
produce later behavioral problems in school. However, it should be noted
that race was not the only difference between the different ethnic
groups in this study. In this study cohort, white families had higher
mean incomes, had achieved higher educational levels, and were more
likely to read to their children every day. Parents in these families
were also more likely to be married. Therefore, as in many issues in
which biopsychosocial factors loom large, it is difficult to separate
the cultural from other socioeconomic factors that contribute to the
difference between subgroups.

[[[ Negating the validity of the studies. ]]]

This study had several additional limitations. Only spanking by the
mother was measured, and other types of corporal punishment were not
analyzed. ...

Hihihi! limitations, Kane? Did they analyze non-cp alternatives too,
Kane?

It does not say. Can you counter the study's comment?

I've always wondered if WHO spanked the child might not have a bearing
on later outcomes.

And here I share with you something you'll love, but is inconclusive and
solely the opinion of the authors, again, scientifically not supportable
by their own admissions.

... However, given the conflicting results of spanking in different
cultural groups and the lack of data on the relative damage that could
be inflicted by spanking compared with other negative parenting
behaviors such as neglect or emotional abuse, it seems appropriate that
physicians provide a summary of the known facts regarding spanking and
leave the decision for corporal punishment up to the parents. The
emphasis in parental counseling should instead focus on positive things
-- support, affection, attention, and love -- that parents can do for
their children every day. ...

Yet, like so many that are unresolved, as is the best they can be if you
look at their entire conclusions, they still recommend NONE spanking and
support.

Opinion. Opinion.

From the authors of the study?

Yes.

I note that every spanking proponent that professes to be a scientist
also expresses their opinion.

Support very like I've described as what I recommend as the more
powerful and effective parenting method over punishment methods.

They didn't EVEN say, "non-spanking discipline."

I've read the study the following comes from many times, and laughed at
you, Doan, when you make claims about it, and when I point out the
obvious, you ignore and go right on citing again as proof that spanking
works as well as non spanking.

Hihihi! I laugh at the way you try to fit that square anti-spanking
peg into the round hole!

No such attempt was made. If a study comes up with two kinds of
punishment for discipline and neither appears to be working to lower
outcomes of aggression in children it would appear to me neither is as
good as non-punitive methods.

Read Embry's study fully?

Here, see if you can figure out the author of this comment on Straus,
and the infamous non CP alternative disciplines:

"Finally, the strongest causal evidence for detrimental outcomes of
spanking is based on methods that make alternative disciplinary tactics
appear equally detrimental in most cases. Of the 11 studies that
controlled partially for initially excessive misbehavior, only Straus et
al. (1997)6 found uniformly detrimental outcomes. The other 10 studies
either found beneficial outcomes (3 studies), a mixture of beneficial
and detrimental outcomes (2 studies), neutral outcomes (1 study), or a
mixture of detrimental and neutral outcomes (4 studies). But Larzelere
and Smith (2000)7 replicated and extended Straus et al.?s (1997) study,
using the same publicly available data set. In general, they found
similar increases in antisocial behavior two years later for those who
used four alternative disciplinary tactics frequently: grounding,
removing privileges, docking allowances, or sending the child to his or
her room. Further, these apparently detrimental outcomes for spanking
and the four alternatives all disappeared after we did a better job of
taking the initial level of excessive misbehavior into account."

And the last sentence is a laugh riot. What kind of "science" is that?
Silly?

Hihihi! You too STUPID to understand what you read right, Kane.

Then you can explain to us what they did to take the "initial level of
excessive misbehavior into account," right?

Please share.

Doan, the author, one of your favorites, AND Straus, PROVE and support,
that NONE PUNITIVE IS THE BETTER WAY TO GO, BECAUSE PUNITIVE METHODS OF
BOTH KINDS HAVE A HIGH RATE OF AGGRESSION, while none punitive have so
little no one has really bother with much research on it. It's simply
understood.

So we should not punish children right, Kane?

If we can avoid it, yes. Most of what children learn can be done without
aversive conditioning. The few things that cannot punish the child from
nature. Until a child is old enough to profit by that kind of learn we
should be protecting them. And not causing them pain for things they
cannot understand.

Are you calling for a
ban on all punishment?

Nope. I'm a fan of natural consequences at the right level of
development for the circumstances.

Get rid of the "jay-vee"?

What's a '"jay-vee"?'

But then, R R R R there IS that Embry study, eh?

The one that has NO PUNISHMENT, right? ;-) Remember what Embry said
about the "extremes"?

I don't recall it having no punishment. I do recall disagreeing with the
idea that the method of "sit and watch" was more effective as
punishment, or as a time for the parent to be with the child and doing
observation of other children providing the correct model the parent
wished the child to follow...playing in safe areas away from the street.

My old college Psych 101 text book claimed that 80% of all learning by
humans is done by the process of modeling.

Embry's discussion of 'sit and watch' was a bit ambiguous if you read
both descriptions in the narrative, and the description in the
instructions to the observers coding the behaviors.

Doan

Yes, you are certainly that.

Kane

Yes, you are certainly STUPID!

For you to continually dodge issues, bring up issues yourself, then
dodge challenges to those issues, is not "smart," Doan, despite that you
appear to think it is.


Doan


The folks knew the answer, Doan, to the question you've answered mainly
by claim we should let the parents decide on the use of CP: The Question
was answered by them.

" 2001-NOV-14: IL: Parents allegedly whipped 12 year old daughter to
death: Larry and Constance Slack allegedly were displeased at their
daughter Lauree. They felt that she was being "uncooperative" after they
ordered their children to find a smock with credit cards inside. In an
attempt to teach their daughter responsibility, they allegedly tied
their daughter Laree to a futon, and whipped her with a 5-foot length of
electrical cable. The cable is 1 inch (2.5 cm) in diameter and was
composed of strands of copper wire and insulation. The parents allegedly
told the police that they were meting out the biblical punishment of "40
lashes minus one, three times." This totals 117 blows. They allegedly
stuffed a towel in her mouth at one point to silence her screams. She
died a few hours later in hospital from internal bleeding as a result of
the torture. Her father attempted to commit suicide while in custody.
Demetra Soter, coordinator of pediatric trauma at Cook County Hospital
said that she knew of only two comparable cases in recent years in the
Chicago area. The parents were each charged with first-degree murder.
They were also charged with aggravated battery in the alleged beating of
their 8-yer old son."

Yes, there is a law against assault.

The problem is that people will hit children without regard for those
laws and claim it as a right.

The challenge from some quarters, like Bill O'Reilly, is that government
should not be telling parents how to raise their children.

That argument went out the window centuries ago.

Government (Society) has always had some effect on how other folks
children were raised.

And the argument fails on already passed laws regarding "how to raise
children."

Society has been doing that for a long time.

Whether it should or not is not arguable in any real sense.

0:-]

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