BF in IKEA - customer complained!

iphigenia wrote:
toypup wrote:

I don't see how his nationality was relevant for context or gives
much info other than you must have some preconcieved notion about
Indians and NIP.


Before we start reading racist overtones into this, please bear in mind that
different cultures DO have different views on BF and NIP.

If you were NIP and you saw a middle-aged, middle-class white American woman
looking at you, what would you assume she was thinking? That she thought it
was great, or that she was from the FF generation and thought that what you
were doing was repulsive, or should at least be hidden away?



Just because she was looking? I wouldn't have any basis for assuming
anything.

Clisby

iphigenia wrote:

toypup wrote:

I don't see how his nationality was relevant for context or gives
much info other than you must have some preconcieved notion about
Indians and NIP.

Before we start reading racist overtones into this, please bear in mind that
different cultures DO have different views on BF and NIP.


I would agree except the poster did not know his nationality, he merely
"looked" a certain way. I'm a Chinese-American woman but how does one
discern that I'm American-borned or foreign-born based on my looks? And
am I Hong Kong Chinese, Taiwan Chinese, Mainland Chinese? It does make a
difference.

Similarly, an Indian-looking male could be from any number of countries
(including the US) with any cultural background.

If you were NIP and you saw a middle-aged, middle-class white American woman
looking at you, what would you assume she was thinking? That she thought it
was great, or that she was from the FF generation and thought that what you
were doing was repulsive, or should at least be hidden away?


I haven't a clue.

Jeanne

In article N_Oqb.139801$e01.467562@attbi_s02,
"toypup" wrote:

"Vicki S" wrote in message
...
Tatjana Pantic wrote:
My friend told him the room was full and than his wife (the
complaining customer's wife) lead him away before I coud say my
piece :-) He did not go to the manager, AFAIK. He was also in his 30's
and from India.

Mary Ann Tuli replied:
How do you know he was from India and why is that significant?

That's funny, I was wondering how she could be so sure of his age.
I expect she thought nationality was relevant for context, just for
adding a little information. ...

I don't see how his nationality was relevant for context or gives much info
other than you must have some preconcieved notion about Indians and NIP.

Umm, I think you mean the OP "must have some preconcieved notion about
Indians and NIP", not that I do. I was speculating about why she said
that. I didn't say it.

And why couldn't it be possible that his nationality would have meaning?
Different cultures deal with things differently, and at different times.
So if you know how Indian society deals with breastfeeding, or how a
mid-30's Indian would be likely to feel about it (maybe one would know
because one is Indian or has Indian relatives or neighbors?) then one
might be able to shed some light on the situation to the OP.
Personally, I have no idea how Indian culture and society are about
breastfeeding. It didn't come up in college or in my early 20s when I
knew the most Indians. But someone else around here might.

--
-- Vicki
Married DH May 21, 1995
Ima shel DS, born 11/16/99; and DD, born 5/19/02.
"Stay-at-home" Ima since October 2002.
An ounce of mother is worth a pound of clergy. -Spanish proverb
I may not currently be pregnant, but I look pregnant, does that count?

"Nevermind" wrote in message
om...
"Shannon G" wrote in message
news:hoEqb.6859$iE.6149@okepread01...
No, *some* women appreciate a feeding
room. They like the privacy. They like having a quiet place where they
can
nurse their highly distracted nursling who likes to pull off at every
sight
and sound.

Why do you mention this pretty obvious fact here? Certainly you don't
think I'm implying that there should not be feeding rooms? No, what I
was saying, in light of the story told in which a man implied that a
woman should not feed her baby in public because there was a feeding
room set aside for that purpose, was that the exitence of feeding
rooms is clearly going to make some people think that now there's no
"excuse" to feed elsewhere in a store. This is not a reflection on the
existence of the feeding rooms, of course, but on the general
attitude, which is that BIF is objectionable and you need an "excuse"
to do it, such as that there isn't anyplace else.


Don't get me wrong, when DD was younger and not so distracted, I nursed her
whenever & wherever she was hungry. Of course, if there was an available
*place* to nurse, ie. feeding/nursing room, and it was not inconvenient, we
used that. I guess I took your post to read, I'll use it *IF I WANT TO BUT
YOU CAN'T MAKE ME*. That is true, no one can make moms use the nursing
rooms. That said, it seems sad for the retail establishment. Danmed if
they do & damned if they don't. As nursing mothers with babes, we brag on
these newsgroups of certain bf-friendly stores with places for moms and
babes to go but then in the same breath, get ****ed that we are actually
expected to nurse there. Geez. Doesn't seem fair to me. I guess i just
feel that we need to be courteous to the fact that not all individuals like
to watch a woman nurse her baby. No, it's not icky, it's the most natural
thing in the world. But, we need to recognize that it does make some people
uncomfortable and we need to be aware and courteous to the fact that the
most popular couch in the store in the busiest intersection of the store may
not be THE BEST PLACE and may bring attention to you, when really all you
are trying to do is feed your babe. Great.....is there a better place, a
quieter place, lower traffic area that I can accomplish the same thing
without compromising the situation?




This kind of thing burns me up, and I'm not exactly a "lactivist". But
we can breastfeed any-the-hell-where we want. It's just feeding a
baby, for heaven's sake! If you're so upset by the sight of a woman's
breasts, stop looking already!

Take another deep breath.

Why do you keep saying this? I have no breathing problems, thank god.
But I do appreciate your concern.

Perhaps this isn't about *your* right to
breastfeed "any-the-hell-where-you-want" but for the comfort of mother,
nursling and other individuals who frequent the store. And yes, you are
a
lactivist :-)

It is about both one's right to BF anywhere and about one's comfort
level BFing anywhere. That is, many women are a lot less comfortable
BFing in public because of experiences and stories like this. The
comfort of "other individuals" is irrelevant in this case.

I disagree. Each individuals' comfort is of importance.

I don't
doubt that there are some individuals who are uncomfortable with all
kinds of things others do in stores, such as women wearing short
shorts or overweight people eating junkfood, but that's their problem,
isn't it? A woman can and should feel free to BF anywhere, and people
who are uncomfortable with it really must learn to keep their opinions
to themselves. It is absolutely none of their business. Do you
disagree with that statement?

Yes, I do. If the store says, no beverages on the sales floor, but provides
a snack.beverage area, do we proclaim our right to eat and drink whenever or
wherever we are or do we go that area? Probably a very bad example. My
point is, *just deal with it* is not the answer, IMO. Yes, a woman has the
right to bf anywhere. But, she also should be courteous to those around
her, realize that some individuals might be uncomfortable and do her best to
recognize the best action to take at the moment. I choose to not bf in
front of my grandfather, merely out of respect for his feelings. Do I have
the right to, of course, but that is not the point.

Shannon

"Vicki S" wrote in message
...
In article N_Oqb.139801$e01.467562@attbi_s02,
"toypup" wrote:

"Vicki S" wrote in message
...
Tatjana Pantic wrote:
My friend told him the room was full and than his wife (the
complaining customer's wife) lead him away before I coud say my
piece :-) He did not go to the manager, AFAIK. He was also in his
30's
and from India.

Mary Ann Tuli replied:
How do you know he was from India and why is that significant?

That's funny, I was wondering how she could be so sure of his age.
I expect she thought nationality was relevant for context, just for
adding a little information. ...

I don't see how his nationality was relevant for context or gives much
info
other than you must have some preconcieved notion about Indians and NIP.

Umm, I think you mean the OP "must have some preconcieved notion about
Indians and NIP", not that I do. I was speculating about why she said
that. I didn't say it.

And why couldn't it be possible that his nationality would have meaning?
Different cultures deal with things differently, and at different times.
So if you know how Indian society deals with breastfeeding, or how a
mid-30's Indian would be likely to feel about it (maybe one would know
because one is Indian or has Indian relatives or neighbors?) then one
might be able to shed some light on the situation to the OP.
Personally, I have no idea how Indian culture and society are about
breastfeeding. It didn't come up in college or in my early 20s when I
knew the most Indians. But someone else around here might.

--
-- Vicki
Married DH May 21, 1995
Ima shel DS, born 11/16/99; and DD, born 5/19/02.
"Stay-at-home" Ima since October 2002.
An ounce of mother is worth a pound of clergy. -Spanish proverb
I may not currently be pregnant, but I look pregnant, does that count?

My own experience of Indians is relatively small but detailed! I went
through pregnancy with an Indian woman and got to be very good friends for a
while and got an insight into their culture. From what she and her family
said they are predominantly BF, and her main comment on it was that her
family were so pleased to see myself and the other white women (at a party)
BF as they don't think that white people do it as often as they should!

Nikki

"Shannon G" wrote
Why do you mention this pretty obvious fact here? Certainly you don't
think I'm implying that there should not be feeding rooms? No, what I
was saying, in light of the story told in which a man implied that a
woman should not feed her baby in public because there was a feeding
room set aside for that purpose, was that the exitence of feeding
rooms is clearly going to make some people think that now there's no
"excuse" to feed elsewhere in a store. This is not a reflection on the
existence of the feeding rooms, of course, but on the general
attitude, which is that BIF is objectionable and you need an "excuse"
to do it, such as that there isn't anyplace else.


Don't get me wrong, when DD was younger and not so distracted, I nursed her
whenever & wherever she was hungry. Of course, if there was an available
*place* to nurse, ie. feeding/nursing room, and it was not inconvenient, we
used that. I guess I took your post to read, I'll use it *IF I WANT TO BUT
YOU CAN'T MAKE ME*. That is true, no one can make moms use the nursing
rooms. That said, it seems sad for the retail establishment. Danmed if
they do & damned if they don't.

They're certainly not damned if they do, or really even if they don't
in that I don't think most of us *expect* retailers to provide such
rooms. I have never heard one complaint from a BFing mom about the
existence of "nursing rooms", only gratitude. This gratitude, though,
doesn't translate into a feeling that we *must* use them. That should
not be part of the deal, or don't bother creating them; thanks anyway.
And I don't assume that the retailer thinks it is part of the deal.
Some ignorant John Q Publics might, but I cannot live my life in
conformance with random strangers' ignorance.

It is about both one's right to BF anywhere and about one's comfort
level BFing anywhere. That is, many women are a lot less comfortable
BFing in public because of experiences and stories like this. The
comfort of "other individuals" is irrelevant in this case.

I disagree. Each individuals' comfort is of importance.

No matter what it takes to make them comfortable? You are probably
aware that some people from some cultures think it's kind of obscene
for a woman to show her head hair. Do you think women in the US should
therefore go out of their way to "be courteous" to these people by
keeping their hair covered in public? If not, why not, in light of the
fact that you think we should go out of our way to not BIP, as a
"courtesy"?

You see, I see discomfort with discrete public breastfeeding as being
as illegitimate here in my culture (USA) as I do discomfort with the
sight of a woman's hair.

"Nevermind" wrote in message
om...
"Shannon G" wrote
Why do you mention this pretty obvious fact here? Certainly you don't
think I'm implying that there should not be feeding rooms? No, what I
was saying, in light of the story told in which a man implied that a
woman should not feed her baby in public because there was a feeding
room set aside for that purpose, was that the exitence of feeding
rooms is clearly going to make some people think that now there's no
"excuse" to feed elsewhere in a store. This is not a reflection on the
existence of the feeding rooms, of course, but on the general
attitude, which is that BIF is objectionable and you need an "excuse"
to do it, such as that there isn't anyplace else.


Don't get me wrong, when DD was younger and not so distracted, I nursed
her
whenever & wherever she was hungry. Of course, if there was an
available
*place* to nurse, ie. feeding/nursing room, and it was not inconvenient,
we
used that. I guess I took your post to read, I'll use it *IF I WANT TO
BUT
YOU CAN'T MAKE ME*. That is true, no one can make moms use the nursing
rooms. That said, it seems sad for the retail establishment. Danmed if
they do & damned if they don't.

They're certainly not damned if they do, or really even if they don't
in that I don't think most of us *expect* retailers to provide such
rooms. I have never heard one complaint from a BFing mom about the
existence of "nursing rooms", only gratitude. This gratitude, though,
doesn't translate into a feeling that we *must* use them. That should
not be part of the deal, or don't bother creating them; thanks anyway.
And I don't assume that the retailer thinks it is part of the deal.
Some ignorant John Q Publics might, but I cannot live my life in
conformance with random strangers' ignorance.

It is about both one's right to BF anywhere and about one's comfort
level BFing anywhere. That is, many women are a lot less comfortable
BFing in public because of experiences and stories like this. The
comfort of "other individuals" is irrelevant in this case.

I disagree. Each individuals' comfort is of importance.

No matter what it takes to make them comfortable? You are probably
aware that some people from some cultures think it's kind of obscene
for a woman to show her head hair. Do you think women in the US should
therefore go out of their way to "be courteous" to these people by
keeping their hair covered in public? If not, why not, in light of the
fact that you think we should go out of our way to not BIP, as a
"courtesy"?

You see, I see discomfort with discrete public breastfeeding as being
as illegitimate here in my culture (USA) as I do discomfort with the
sight of a woman's hair.


Very poor analogy, IMO (the hair thing). You snipped a lot from my previous
post and I'm not going to attempt to sway your thinking into believing my
point on trying to be courteous and to accomodating to others. I'll just
say that I disagree with you.

Shannon

"iphigenia" wrote in message ...
wrote:

I don't have a problem with her feeding the baby in Ikea, but I
wouldn't have done so on the furniture displays. I would worry about
getting milk or spit-up on the furniture - it just seems rude.

I would. If there's a nice, comfy chair on display, then I'd be perfectly
willing to take advantage of it, rather than having to go to another floor
and look for a feeding room, all the while trying to pacify a hungry baby
until it can be found. It's display furniture, it's there to be tested.

Once past the newborn stage, I certainly never had problems with getting
milk anywhere but where it was meant to go.

I've nursed my daughter while sitting in the rocking chairs at Babies
R Us (yes I know they have a mother's room - and I use that too)

Cathy Weeks
Mommy to Kivi Alexis 12/01

"Shannon G" wrote in message news:hLZqb.9065
But, she also should be courteous to those around
her, realize that some individuals might be uncomfortable and do her best to
recognize the best action to take at the moment.

Hmmm...please don't take this the wrong way, but...If there's someone
who is offended at the site of a woman nursing her baby - well, screw
'em.

If you know that there might be someone in IKEA that objects to a
woman wearing the color red, would you avoid that color?

I understand that breasts have a bit more ah, cultural meaning, than
any given color, but if - and I think we all agree that babies should
be able to feed anywhere - how are we supposed to accomplish that
goal, if we never actually feed them anywhere?

I do try not to flash my boobs at people, but at this point, I'm
pretty good at BF discreetly.

When I'm in someone elses home, THEN I do my best to respect their
feelings on the matter. But in my home, and in public places where
obviously people can reasonably have food and drink (and IKEA counts,
imo) then my child deserves the same right to feed that anyone else
does.

I choose to not bf in
front of my grandfather, merely out of respect for his feelings. Do I have
the right to, of course, but that is not the point.

And if it were my Grandpa (though both are dead now), it would depend
on whose home I were in. His? Then if it bothered him, I'd go do it in
private. Mine? He can go somewhere else instead. However, I was
fortunate to grow up with a grandfather who thought BFing beautiful,
and there's a photo of me breastfeeding in the family album, that my
grandpa took of Mom and me.

Cathy Weeks
Mommy to Kivi Alexis 12/01

wrote in message ...
"Mary Ann Tuli" wrote in message
...


Tatjana Pantic wrote:
My friend told him the room was full and than his wife
(the complaining customer's wife) lead him away before I coud say my
piece :-) He did not go to the manager, AFAIK. He was also in his 30's
and from India.

How do you know he was from India and why is that significant?

Mary Ann

Well I'm not the OP but I think it is significant because of cultural
influences. However I would have been less surprised to hear that the
gentleman was white and of British or American origin.

Having worked with lots of Indians over the years, I would agree with
that. Most Indians I've known were more supportive in general than
most people who were born here. So I too, would have been less
surprised at a white American male complaining.

Cathy Weeks
Mommy to Kivi Alexis 12/01