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Do Plant and Droaner claim insufficient spanking for Klebold and Harris caused Columbine?



 
 
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  #11  
Old May 19th 04, 04:02 PM
bobb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Does Kane9 claim spanking for Klebold and Harris caused Columbine?


"Kane" wrote in message
om...
On Tue, 18 May 2004 08:17:10 -0500, "bobb"
wrote:


"Doan" wrote in message
...

Being stupid again! No where did the article mention anything about
spanking!

Doan

On 16 May 2004, Kane wrote:

After all, over 90% of all parents spank, right? Where was that

cop
with his nightstick when this family needed him, asks Droany.

Where were the church members and the objects to beat suspended

boys
with, asks The Plant.

Or if the families has been good families, like the folks in the
1800's who routinely fed opiates to their children to quite them

and
killed them thereby this wouldn't have happened, speculates the
Spirea.

From Fox News:

Klebolds Say They Don't Need Forgiveness

Sunday, May 16, 2004

NEW YORK - In their first interview since the Columbine High

School
(search) massacre, the parents of one of the killers said they feel

no
need be forgiven and didn't realize their son was beyond hope until
after he was dead.


"Dylan (Klebold) did not do this because of the way he was raised,"
Susan Klebold told columnist David Brooks (search) in Saturday's
editions of The New York Times. "He did it in contradiction to the

way
he was raised."


See complete story at..........

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120054,00.html


It is silly to beleive, or even offer, the idea that spanking was the

cause
of this behavior. And I agree, no where has spanking been

mentioned. I
could even suspect these boys were never spanked.


Sure you could, and the odds are?

How about 10 to 1? 90% or so is the claim for spanking in the US.

I did not say they were spanked or not. I offer the gamblers
perspective, and I've lived a very successful life just paying
attention to the odds. I, for instance, do NOT run red lights in my
car, as I have it on good authority that the odds would be against me
big time.

I didn't spank my children for a very similar reason......just looked
at prison populations and I read, among other things, a study by a
Chicago school of social work researcher, Fischer, back in the 60's,
that FAILED TO FIND AN UNSPANKED INMATE AMONG ALL PRISONERS, INCLUDING
A RECORDS SEARCH AND SURVEY.


Similar survey show that all prisoner chew gum, too. Such a common practice
as spanking means nothing.

Last week, if I told you drinking carbonated soda causes cancer I woulda
been laughed outta here. But recent news reports conclude as such. Now, I
have to wonder, who hasne't consumed carbonated soda? Is one soda more
'dangerous' than another, or is it just the carbonation?

More junk science.


I also cannot understand why it is necessary for the parents to

apologize
for the behaviors of their son.


Given the beliefs about child rearing in this country, and the use of
punishment so many of us are compulsively addicted to, I don't think
they should apologize either.

I think WE ALL SHOULD APOLOGIZE TO THEM for misleading them. YOU most
of all.

Me, because I've not worked hard enough to put an end, though I've
spent half a lifetime on it, to abusive violent child rearing methods.

If the victims are looking for answers they
have a narrowed, unrealistic, view.


The have the view of people in deep grief. I don't expect rational
objectivity from greaving people. I know you do though, since you
don't even believe they should or could benefit by seeking out grief
counseling/therapy.

This is what you get when people have not been able to resolve their
grief.


It's all about being a victim. For too long, children, and now those who
have become adults, have been protected or misled about suffering losses.
Life is necessairly a string of losses, very few of which call for
retribution. Not a soul goes through life without a loss or even being
treated unfairly. So what? Pick up the peices and move on.

I could say that the parents missed an obvious red flag... the trench
coat... but so did a lot of other people.


Wearing a trenchcoat is not a sign of murderous intent. In that case
it simply signified membership in an adolescent clique, something most
of the kids in the school did, as is true in all our public schools.

Membership does not equate with murderous intent, just teen angst.

I'm of the opinon that
individuality is not a bad thing.. but there are limits, and there

must be a
sense of understanding. The trench coat represented an enviornment

of
acceptance or attention the boys could not find elsewhere.


That does NOT smack of individuality. I've known a few kids that were
indiviuals in highschool, and were not definable by any group. Usually
much more interesting people than the kids in cliques. And usually
turned out better too. Often those of genius mentality, one way or
another.

While some kids
dress and opt for out-landish' appearances, much of the time it is

done in
fun or fad Certain behaviors and dress are for no purpose other

than
something sinister or illgeal.


Nonsense. WE, this society, creates a "villain" class. In fact it's my
major bitch with religion. The schools foster this, or minimize the
importance of it, and the kids carry it on.

For instance, gang colors and their
associated uniforms. Society, including the school officials, need

to
intervene when rules of expected conduct are broken.


R R R R ....this from bobb, the foremost complainer about PCness in
this ng.

You are sooo stupid bobb. You just presented an argument for PCness
yourself.

There is a need to
question and sometimes react. I'm of the opinon gangs membership

could be
limited merely by offering alternatives before kids become firmly
entrenched.


What alternatives, bobb? Counseling? How do you tempt the kid into NOT
joining a gang? What incentives? Midnight basketball?


I'm glad you asked the question. Look around... there is not a single
program that confronts borderline kids. Park districts.. and even midnight
basketball all cater to kids without behavioral problems. Break a rule and
they toss you out.

The street corner kids is left standing there... they are not encouraged to
participate. No one wants to bother with kids who do not conform or fit in.

Even with all the bad news about 'boot camps' listen to a majority of the
kids.. most enjoyed the experience. They discovered social skills and true
interpersonal relationships. My problem with these boot camps is the kids
are released after serving their time.... even though many want to remain.
I ask, released to what? The same conditions that sent them there in the
first place. There is no mechanism to give a kid what he wants, or needs....
after state jusidiction expires. Oh, yeah, a lot of those kids enjoyed the
out-doors, enjoyed being with animals, enjoyed their new friends... only to
suffer another loss and continuing comfort.

We also know many younger kids in juvenile detention screw up on purpose
just to return to jail (youth homes). Standard policy in Illinois is not to
return an offender to the same facility and sense of comfort. It seems
there are answers ... but all are ignored.

True, not all kids are as I suggest .. but it's not hard to find many who
do.

We also hear of kids crying out for families... but only after in custody.
What about those not in custody? Who listens to them? For the most part...
who even wants them around?

I could go on and on... but we continue to lose kids within a system that
uses a bandaide approach.





How about....gasp!..... getting them away from dangerous parents and
putting them with socially and mentally healthy.......double
gasp!....foster parents?


Sometimes, yes. If that's what the kid wants. There are many who would
like to get away from their parents...but do want a choice of where they
live. Not forced to live with stranger, or under conditions, that are less
than favorable.

State law prohibits kids from excercising those choices. If they have the
ability, and most often choice, to get themselves in trouble, they should
certainly have the ability, or at least the opportunity, to choose their
living conditions.




Columbine High school, in all probability, helped to set the
stage for this disaster.


As do many HS's in the country. Highschool life, the culture, is one
of great stress. Children are ALLOWED to threaten and bully each
other, and a society of elitism is encouraged. I was a HS jock so I
know about it from the approved side..but saw what it cost the less
popular and athletic kids.

The largeness of high schools these days is slowly being recognized

not only
as instituions of poor learning... but also a feeding ground for the

rampant
distribution of drugs and anti-social cults.


I went, in the 50's, to a magnet HS that had over 5,000 kids in it. We
had "gangs" and I daresay more than a little weed floating around.

This isn't a new phenomena. It's just larger today and more out in the
open. We hid our little vices back then.

There is little or no time to
intereact with kids..or even to hear their calls for help when it is

needed.

I dunno bobb. The public has seen fit (PC, remember) to address these
issues.


But not in any meaninful way.


As adults, it is not unusal that many perfer to work for the smaller,

family
oriented companies where there are more opportunties to contribute,

and
successes do not go unrecognized.


Yep, it's the bigness. We never had bigness before. GM, GE, US Steel,
are all start up companies.

Obviously, with a dozen or so jr.
schools feeding a single large high school the opportunity to

participate in
school acitivites such as football becomes extremely limited.


HS athletic departments suffer from an imbalance of funding given to
competative intramural sports at the expense of good ol' PE.

Not enough is spent on getting all kids fit, and too much is spent on
jocks.

Many boys
who were motivied through sports in the lower grade must be left out.


Yep..because of intramural sports...no OTHER reason. The belief in
"jock" is what does it.


Not only jocks...the was merely an example. Other kids opt for the drama
club, acting, year book, newspaper, cheer-leading. All activites are
extremely limited to but a few kids out of thousands in attendance.


There are no more or less kids left out in smaller schools. It's the
same at all levels.


Do your math... that's not an accurate statement.

With rare exceptions. Now and then a school is set up to promote
academics over competitive sports. They don't have the problems of
Columbine...notice that? Those schools (even some that were once jock
oriented and rife with violence) don't produce student violence one
they leave the jock mindset.

Those
who make the team are, I would assume, the best of the best and

flaunt their
status.... and no doubt the school caters to their acheivements.


Actually it's often who your daddy is. If he's powerful locally in
politics and the economy you can bet an even better athlete will lose
out to that son.


Another false asumption but does a have ring of truth.


I would
suppose boys who are left out feel much like the person who gets

fired from
a job he really likes and enjoys.


Yep. The jock mindset will produce that. .


Read above.... there are others beside jocks that are left out.


It's a bit hard to quarter-back the police and social workers but

they, too,
must admit failure. There are too many laws that keep kids in

school,
especially at the higher age groups, who probably have no business

being
there. It's become quite obvious, and always has been, some kids are

in
school merely for the social interaction or 'fun' as they might call

it...
not education.. and spend more time in detention than actual class.

For
that, I've always asked, why? Could it be that even Klebold and

his
group had no business in school? That may be the extreme but did

anyone
take the time to determine what was going on with those boys.... or

to
recognize the failings of the school?


Could you babble a bit more?


Sure....


The victims parents should be looking at all the attendant social
problems... not merely the boy's parents.


Nooooo....reallly?


To demand an apology only from the parents excuses all others, including the
system.


Columbine is not isolated except for experiencing the extreme. Other
schools are disrupted in much the same manner and have their own

sorta
trench coat mafias. As mcuh as CPS has fallen into dispair.... so

have our
schools.


For much the same reasons. A lot of lies. A lot of unrealistic
expectations (even the institutions sometimes buy into that). And
stupid people pointing fingers at the non-problems and ignoring the
real ones.


No.. it's easy to point out the obvious and often superfluous.. and detract
or ignore the root of the problem.

There have been some out-standing school principles and teachers who stood
up and took responsibility.... but there are not enough. Too many want to
hide behind their paycheck.

bobb



People such as you, bobb.

YOU are a typical "jock" mindset person. Your distain for women. Your
racist bigotry. Your dismissal of social programs that work.


bobb


Nice chatting with you.

Kane



  #12  
Old May 19th 04, 04:16 PM
bobb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Does Kane9 claim spanking for Klebold and Harris caused Columbine?

Hey, Doan...LOL...

Hey, Kane... Magnet schools were something invented in the 70's. My high
school had but 900 kids... dunno about 5,000 kids way back then.

Drugs... hahahaha.. marijuana was something we heard about... not saw, or
experienced. Course I'm just a simple country boy.

I thnk the Supt. and principle knew every kid by name and knew what your
abilities, talents, and interests were.. or weren't. Hmm... and most of our
classes were 30 and 32 kids.

I'm a total advocate for smaller schools... neighborhood schools.... without
the influence of outsiders.


bobb


  #13  
Old May 20th 04, 01:38 AM
Kane
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Does Kane9 claim spanking for Klebold and Harris caused Columbine?

On Wed, 19 May 2004 10:02:10 -0500, "bobb"
wrote:


"Kane" wrote in message
. com...
On Tue, 18 May 2004 08:17:10 -0500, "bobb"
wrote:


"Doan" wrote in message
...

Being stupid again! No where did the article mention anything

about
spanking!

Doan

On 16 May 2004, Kane wrote:

After all, over 90% of all parents spank, right? Where was that

cop
with his nightstick when this family needed him, asks Droany.

Where were the church members and the objects to beat suspended

boys
with, asks The Plant.

Or if the families has been good families, like the folks in the
1800's who routinely fed opiates to their children to quite them

and
killed them thereby this wouldn't have happened, speculates the
Spirea.

From Fox News:

Klebolds Say They Don't Need Forgiveness

Sunday, May 16, 2004

NEW YORK - In their first interview since the Columbine High

School
(search) massacre, the parents of one of the killers said they

feel
no
need be forgiven and didn't realize their son was beyond hope

until
after he was dead.


"Dylan (Klebold) did not do this because of the way he was

raised,"
Susan Klebold told columnist David Brooks (search) in Saturday's
editions of The New York Times. "He did it in contradiction to

the
way
he was raised."


See complete story at..........

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120054,00.html

It is silly to beleive, or even offer, the idea that spanking was

the
cause
of this behavior. And I agree, no where has spanking been

mentioned. I
could even suspect these boys were never spanked.


Sure you could, and the odds are?

How about 10 to 1? 90% or so is the claim for spanking in the US.

I did not say they were spanked or not. I offer the gamblers
perspective, and I've lived a very successful life just paying
attention to the odds. I, for instance, do NOT run red lights in my
car, as I have it on good authority that the odds would be against

me
big time.

I didn't spank my children for a very similar reason......just

looked
at prison populations and I read, among other things, a study by a
Chicago school of social work researcher, Fischer, back in the

60's,
that FAILED TO FIND AN UNSPANKED INMATE AMONG ALL PRISONERS,

INCLUDING
A RECORDS SEARCH AND SURVEY.


Similar survey show that all prisoner chew gum, too.


I'm unfamiliar with the survey. Could you cite the researcher firm or
academic source for this survey? Thanks.

Such a common practice
as spanking means nothing.


Well, I daresay that you are incorrect sir. Spanking is much more
painful and noticable and impactful than gumchewing....but I'm darned
if I can come up with a survey or study to prove it. Want to call me a
liar?

Last week, if I told you drinking carbonated soda causes cancer I

woulda
been laughed outta here.


Nope. I'd have asked your source. I only make fun of you when you are
WRONG, as you are about spanking.

But recent news reports conclude as such. Now, I
have to wonder, who hasne't consumed carbonated soda? Is one soda

more
'dangerous' than another, or is it just the carbonation?


I did a search. I'm unable to find your source for this. Would you
mind citing it please? I would like to see who said so and what their
evidence is.

More junk science.


I recall that Gallileo was greated with similar hoots of derision. One
has to examine the research to determine if it's actually junk or not.

As for myself, I'm apalled at the number of children turning up with
cancer, in greater numbers, at earlier ages year after year. I
recently read something, darned if I can recall where, that there is a
specialty for pediatric oncology. That makes me very sad.

If there is speculation that what children eat and drink or are
otherwise exposed to is a likely cause I'm all for taking a closer
look and not dismissing it, hhhrrrrrrmmmmph out of hand.

By the way. When are chosing analogies, try to find equal to equal in
characteristics. I hardly think that spanking compared to gum chewing
is fair, don't you?

After all, I doubt that anyone ever because confused about their
sexual urges from gum chewing.

http://nospank.net/jenn.htm and this isn't the only such story. The
author was reacting to reading another's childhood confusing
experience.

When you find a "gum" related instance of sexual confusion, let me
know. I'll be very interested...or for that matter, any extraordinary
outcomes from the childhood experience, or the prisoner experience, of
gum chewing. That's a good lad.

I also cannot understand why it is necessary for the parents to

apologize
for the behaviors of their son.


Given the beliefs about child rearing in this country, and the use

of
punishment so many of us are compulsively addicted to, I don't

think
they should apologize either.

I think WE ALL SHOULD APOLOGIZE TO THEM for misleading them. YOU

most
of all.

Me, because I've not worked hard enough to put an end, though I've
spent half a lifetime on it, to abusive violent child rearing

methods.

If the victims are looking for answers they
have a narrowed, unrealistic, view.


The have the view of people in deep grief. I don't expect rational
objectivity from greaving people. I know you do though, since you
don't even believe they should or could benefit by seeking out

grief
counseling/therapy.

This is what you get when people have not been able to resolve

their
grief.


It's all about being a victim.


Yep. Very few people exhibit the clinical, laboratory varifiable
chemical physiological changes of loss without having been a victim.

http://www.nncc.org/Child.Dev/depress.html

Do you know the primary causes for depression? One is chemical
imbalances, and the other, stress brought on by such things as loss.

The reason for treatment in those showing the obvious signs, as you
can read about above is simple to figure out. It's so depression can
be eleviated, and so it won't become worse, which then can become a
chronic clinical body chemical imbalance. It is terrible to be caught
in depression as it is easy to treat, if not allowed to go on too long
or happen to often without treatment.

Where people are often misled about depression as an outcome of loss,
is that people can have many losses without going into depression, and
even losses untreated, but simply moved on from. That's how we are
made.

The problem is the cumulative effects, even in folks within the normal
genetic range of reactivity to stress. What they could handle as young
healthy folks with fewer loss experiences under their belt, can build
to, in later life, complete collapse into chronic and very frightening
clinical depression easily triggered by minor things that wouldn't
have fazed them when young.

Your ignorace is exposed, and forgiven. By the way....people can
suffer all the symptoms of clinical chronic depression and think they
are normal. If treated, being normal frightens the hell out them
because they become able to examine and understand their own feelings
and that of others, and other social normal realities.

I wonder about you sometimes.

For too long, children, and now those who
have become adults, have been protected or misled about suffering

losses.

No, in fact they have, for too long, been kept ignorant as you are,
and risk, and often succumb to, serious mental illness because their
losses were minimized by folks such as you being in charge of them,
and NOT seeing they recieved evaluation and help if needed.

Life is necessairly a string of losses, very few of which call for
retribution.


Yep. Retribution is the resolution of savages. And the ignorant. I
dare say many a violent murder has taken place while the perp was in
depression and did not know it, but his thinking...often obsessive and
error filled, led him or her to think things were happening, or others
had motives, that did in fact not exist in reality.

That's only ONE of the dangers of untreated loss developing in to
depression, a mental illness detectable by laboratory testing of
blood.

Not a soul goes through life without a loss or even being
treated unfairly.


Wow! You are Soooooo wise. We'd have never known that if you hadn't
pointed it out.

So what?


So people kill themselves if left untreated. Depression is closely
associated with suicide. Look it up. I gave you one URL.

Pick up the peices and move on.


I just knew you'd say that. The ignorant always do. This action works,
some of the time. But when it doesn't the consequences are not only
bad, they are cumulatively unhealthy. Untreated depression results in
bodily changes that then makes the person MORE prone to depression
again, with less stressors, and more deeply.

Suicide is an all to common outcome of depression....and depression is
said to be so painful that people tend to suicide, when they do,
coming OUT of depression. They are terrified it will come back.

You are doing something very cruel and thoughtless when you encourage
people to just pick up and move on. You may be asking them to risk
their health and life.

The immune system is often compromised from depression, so it's not
just a psychological problem.


I could say that the parents missed an obvious red flag... the

trench
coat... but so did a lot of other people.


Wearing a trenchcoat is not a sign of murderous intent. In that

case
it simply signified membership in an adolescent clique, something

most
of the kids in the school did, as is true in all our public

schools.

Membership does not equate with murderous intent, just teen angst.

I'm of the opinon that
individuality is not a bad thing.. but there are limits, and there

must be a
sense of understanding. The trench coat represented an

enviornment
of
acceptance or attention the boys could not find elsewhere.


That does NOT smack of individuality. I've known a few kids that

were
indiviuals in highschool, and were not definable by any group.

Usually
much more interesting people than the kids in cliques. And usually
turned out better too. Often those of genius mentality, one way or
another.

While some kids
dress and opt for out-landish' appearances, much of the time it

is
done in
fun or fad Certain behaviors and dress are for no purpose other

than
something sinister or illgeal.


Nonsense. WE, this society, creates a "villain" class. In fact it's

my
major bitch with religion. The schools foster this, or minimize the
importance of it, and the kids carry it on.

For instance, gang colors and their
associated uniforms. Society, including the school officials,

need
to
intervene when rules of expected conduct are broken.


R R R R ....this from bobb, the foremost complainer about PCness in
this ng.

You are sooo stupid bobb. You just presented an argument for PCness
yourself.

There is a need to
question and sometimes react. I'm of the opinon gangs membership

could be
limited merely by offering alternatives before kids become firmly
entrenched.


What alternatives, bobb? Counseling? How do you tempt the kid into

NOT
joining a gang? What incentives? Midnight basketball?


I'm glad you asked the question. Look around... there is not a

single
program that confronts borderline kids. Park districts.. and even

midnight
basketball all cater to kids without behavioral problems. Break a

rule and
they toss you out.


So show us a working design for a program that engages those kids that
don't want to be engaged.

I have had many years of yakkin' it up with state legislators, and am
not unknown to congressional critters either. I'll be happy to present
the "bobb Program" if it looks even halfway feasible.

I was a witness to and complaintant about the Reagan destruction of
County and City Youth programs when he came into the Presidency.

They were working tremendously well. I helped divert federal Law
Enforcement improvement funding from street corner survaillance
cameras to MORE youth programs, and I'm very proud of it, and very
angry over the losses Reagan caused.

When youth like you describe had no safe hangouts they just got into
more trouble, and the law got them after all.

So you are talkin' to the right man here. Just show us a program. I
assure you I'll follow through. Twice I've followed through nationally
on issues in these ngs that I've said so. The Rod, and premature baby
fragility of bones.

When I find a righteous need and cause I WILL step up to the plate.

Whatcha got?

The street corner kids is left standing there... they are not

encouraged to
participate. No one wants to bother with kids who do not conform or

fit in.

Who is going to invite him or her to participate? And you are wrong,
exceptionally wrong in the case of hispanics and blacks. They are well
known for outreach programs to just such disaffected youth.

But then you don't think they are capable, do you?

I do so love to help the ignorant:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...lack+community

Even with all the bad news about 'boot camps' listen to a majority of

the
kids.. most enjoyed the experience. They discovered social skills

and true
interpersonal relationships. My problem with these boot camps is the

kids
are released after serving their time.... even though many want to

remain.

In other words, take welfare. And you approve?

Let me tell you what criminal youth really says about Boot Camps:

He revealed that the gang leaders consider state sponsored boot camps
training grounds for more and better disciplined gang members.

In other words, Boot Camp may be the cause of MORE gangs who do MORE
crime BETTER than ever before.

Boot Camp teaches compliance (just like spanking does in some
instances) to authority, but as you said, there is not follow through.
Problem with follow through is that a single kid in boot camp costs
from $22,000 to $35,000. Want to foot the bill and then provide MORE
support to the kid, as you suggest, by keeping them in bootcamp?

Well I've got a surprise for you. Few want to stay, and they will
leave if they aren't locked up. No matter what they say.

I ask, released to what?


Yep.

The same conditions that sent them there in the
first place.


Yep. The product of poverty, racism, bigotry.

There is no mechanism to give a kid what he wants, or needs....
after state jusidiction expires.


Sure there is. Crime is a great career. You get to make lots of money
fast, then take a long vacation to get clean and sober and do some
seminars and consulting with experts.

Oh, yeah, a lot of those kids enjoyed the
out-doors, enjoyed being with animals, enjoyed their new friends...

only to
suffer another loss and continuing comfort.


Yep. So how does Boot Camp work again?

It doesn't. It's a feel good, that on the kids it works with any
number of other interventions would likely have worked anyway.
Including jail time.

Or rehab and counseling. You don't have the least idea what counseling
really is, do you?

I watched a good CPS caseworker, trained as a youth counselor, with an
MSW I do believe (darn those educated fools, eh, bobb?) with a heavy
caseload of teens, mostly male.

He whupped his skill on them something fierce and saved many of them
from screwing up in court and going to boot camp, and instead learning
to be personally responsible instead of putting it on society.

He was one mean SOB, and his rate of saving those kids was extremely
high. And they loved him very much. Wish I could tell you his name but
that would give away things not mine to reveal.

It individuals that make a difference, bobb. You could if you'd get
over your ignorance and grow up. And stop your babbling fear generated
nonsense.

He had guts. You could use some.

We also know many younger kids in juvenile detention screw up on

purpose
just to return to jail (youth homes).


Yep. Though I'm not so sure you have the motive right. Many do it
because they are unaware there is any other choice. You can tell them,
but if they haven't experienced it personally, and had the support to
keep on trying when they fail, it ain't a gonna happen.

Standard policy in Illinois is not to
return an offender to the same facility and sense of comfort. It

seems
there are answers ... but all are ignored.


Your meaning is buried under the obtuseness of your prose.

True, not all kids are as I suggest .. but it's not hard to find many

who
do.


Well, it's always good to make a wiggle room statement, now isn't it.

You misread so much about people bobb, that I'd fain believe you are
correct about youth...and you forget, I am trained and had years of
experience with the same population...mentally ill, socially
malajusted, and criminally inclined. So I'm not just blowin' smoke
here.

We also hear of kids crying out for families... but only after in

custody.

Yep. And sometimes they'll lie and reverse their accusations, often
founded on physical evidence, but without their testimony,
unprosecutable. Nice, eh? They will often claim that someone else did
it to them, "a stranger, not their dad or mom, or big brother." just
so they can go back home.

What about those not in custody? Who listens to them? For the most

part...
who even wants them around?


Well, apparently YOU are out in the cold on that one. There are plenty
of people that create and staff organizations that serve youth, and
the folks that volunteer are legion. Big Brother is a model used over
and over for many such programs.

What I see here is YOU, a misanthropic, sour, anti everything
sensible, twit, crying about things that you are igorant of,
apparently by choice.

Why not go and DO some of what you think others should. Go help those
youth. Go on the street and contact them. Join an organization, either
employed or volunteer if that's all you can find.

Instead you whine that everyone else is at fault. Well, the only ones
that are are YOU, just with different names, you lazy whining ass.

I could go on and on...


Yep! And you do, most predictably.

but we continue to lose kids within a system that
uses a bandaide approach.


It uses the approach that lazy whining assholes just like you, who
have all the answers and none of the commitement TO DO SOMETHING other
than bitch and whine, leave them the underfunding and understaffing,
and under support at the legislature, to do.

It's you and people like you and the liar on these ngs, that cause
these problems, bobb.

Bigots are number one when they deny the impact of racism, bobb. They
are the cause of suffering beyond any other cause.

Even the economy and social unrest, and disease and natural disaster
can't hold a candle to bigots such as you bobb.

I'm so amused by the claim that surveys prove, for instance, that
blacks are, even in africa and even in south sea islands, unable to
test at the levels of other races.

It shows the ignorance of millenia of racism, fierce destructive
racism and social and physical violence and theft, just plain theft,
against the planets dark people.

Yet, they still have their geniuses, and scholars, easily the match of
whites. These are denied because of "data" and "Statistics" that throw
away variable, like I just mentioned.

I've seen YOU do it.

How about....gasp!..... getting them away from dangerous parents

and
putting them with socially and mentally healthy.......double
gasp!....foster parents?


Sometimes, yes. If that's what the kid wants. There are many who

would
like to get away from their parents...but do want a choice of where

they
live. Not forced to live with stranger, or under conditions, that

are less
than favorable.


Ah yes, teenagers will chose to live with people that will keep them
safe, provide structure and guidance, and have a deep and abiding
attachment, share by the kid, between them.

What an ignorant putz you are, bobb.

One of the great problems with the use of relatives as providers for
kids is that they often assume the attachment (that powerful tool that
is all parents have once a kid hits their teen years, and has to be
laid down over the childhood of the kid) with the child, and wonder
why they are out of control....of course blaming the child.

State law prohibits kids from excercising those choices.


Oh bull****, bobb. Kids over a certain age are routinely consulted on
their choices of placement. They get turned down when it's obvious
they just want to run wild living with some 25 year old older brother
or sister of a friend.

They even have a voice in adoptive placements if adoption is what they
desire, and at around 14 in most states they can even turn DOWN
adoption if they wish. And most do over that age.

If they have the
ability, and most often choice, to get themselves in trouble, they

should
certainly have the ability, or at least the opportunity, to choose

their
living conditions.


Now there is a choice bit of nonsense. Did you bang your head against
the bathroom wall for an hour or two before posting this drivel?

The one clearly negates the other. It's the kid that demonstrates the
capacity to NOT get into trouble, to stay out of it, to pursue
sensible actions and make sensible decisions that gets MORE
responsiblity.....just like YOU and I, numbnuts.

Columbine High school, in all probability, helped to set the
stage for this disaster.


As do many HS's in the country. Highschool life, the culture, is

one
of great stress. Children are ALLOWED to threaten and bully each
other, and a society of elitism is encouraged. I was a HS jock so I
know about it from the approved side..but saw what it cost the less
popular and athletic kids.


Didn't even bother to respond. Just like you. Pass over the real issue
of the thread to prattle on in your ignorance about things you don't
have a clue about.


The largeness of high schools these days is slowly being

recognized
not only
as instituions of poor learning... but also a feeding ground for

the
rampant
distribution of drugs and anti-social cults.


I went, in the 50's, to a magnet HS that had over 5,000 kids in it.

We
had "gangs" and I daresay more than a little weed floating around.

This isn't a new phenomena. It's just larger today and more out in

the
open. We hid our little vices back then.

There is little or no time to
intereact with kids..or even to hear their calls for help when it

is
needed.

I dunno bobb. The public has seen fit (PC, remember) to address

these
issues.


But not in any meaninful way.


Well, like beauty, it's kind of in the eye of the beholder, now isn't
it. You make these statements but, and even offer to fix things,
(youth outreach) but you don't say what the right way of responding
meaningfully is.

In other words, platitudes is all yah got, bobbie. Some dangerous as
hell too. "Pick up and move on" after loss...yeah, right. Let the ones
that didn't make it just improve the gene pool by their absense.

As adults, it is not unusal that many perfer to work for the

smaller,
family
oriented companies where there are more opportunties to

contribute,
and
successes do not go unrecognized.


Yep, it's the bigness. We never had bigness before. GM, GE, US

Steel,
are all start up companies.

Obviously, with a dozen or so jr.
schools feeding a single large high school the opportunity to

participate in
school acitivites such as football becomes extremely limited.


HS athletic departments suffer from an imbalance of funding given

to
competative intramural sports at the expense of good ol' PE.

Not enough is spent on getting all kids fit, and too much is spent

on
jocks.

Many boys
who were motivied through sports in the lower grade must be left

out.

Yep..because of intramural sports...no OTHER reason. The belief in
"jock" is what does it.


Not only jocks...the was merely an example. Other kids opt for the

drama
club, acting, year book, newspaper, cheer-leading. All activites are
extremely limited to but a few kids out of thousands in attendance.


Yep. What's that tell you about public school policy and practice, eh?

I'm a homeschooling advocate. Did you forget? The incidence of
delinquency among homeschooled kids is so damn small it's hard to even
find. They are the busiest kids in the country, or planet for that
matter. And they have more fun by far than PS kids. And their parents
have more fun, and do more learning themselves than the parents of PS
kids.


There are no more or less kids left out in smaller schools. It's

the
same at all levels.


Do your math...


Oh for **** sakes. Can't you come up with something original, or are
all you got platitudes and jingoism?

that's not an accurate statement.


You have to get down to very small schools to find a significant
difference in the left outs. The biggest difference is the ease of
supervision. And that is not being left in, bubbah. It's just being
watched.

With rare exceptions. Now and then a school is set up to promote
academics over competitive sports. They don't have the problems of
Columbine...notice that? Those schools (even some that were once

jock
oriented and rife with violence) don't produce student violence one
they leave the jock mindset.

Those
who make the team are, I would assume, the best of the best and

flaunt their
status.... and no doubt the school caters to their acheivements.


Actually it's often who your daddy is. If he's powerful locally in
politics and the economy you can bet an even better athlete will

lose
out to that son.


Another false asumption


Hey dummy. I live in one of those small communities you are rambling
on about. I'm politically and economically active here and know what
goes on. The rich and politically powerful folks have names. The names
of most of the kids in the news on the sports page and the community
activities page are the same last names.

Go figger.

but does a have ring of truth.


Well because I'm speaking directly to my current events experience.
LIke the weekly paper I read day before yesterday, and the meetings I
attend on a monthy basis with community social programming issues.

I would
suppose boys who are left out feel much like the person who gets

fired from
a job he really likes and enjoys.


Yep. The jock mindset will produce that. .


Read above.... there are others beside jocks that are left out.


So I didn't list them all. How does that change the accuracy of my
statement? What a ditz.

For **** sakes didn't any of your teachers give you the gift of
critical thinking. Stop babbling.


It's a bit hard to quarter-back the police and social workers but

they, too,
must admit failure. There are too many laws that keep kids in

school,
especially at the higher age groups, who probably have no business

being
there. It's become quite obvious, and always has been, some kids

are
in
school merely for the social interaction or 'fun' as they might

call
it...
not education.. and spend more time in detention than actual

class.
For
that, I've always asked, why? Could it be that even Klebold

and
his
group had no business in school? That may be the extreme but did

anyone
take the time to determine what was going on with those boys....

or
to
recognize the failings of the school?


Could you babble a bit more?


Sure....


I know. Care to clarify, instead turn tail?

The victims parents should be looking at all the attendant social
problems... not merely the boy's parents.


Nooooo....reallly?


To demand an apology only from the parents excuses all others,

including the
system.


Yep. And you didn't notice that was my take as well? Oh well.

Why would I mention OUR, yours and mine, responsibility to apologise
to all concerned for the failure of society that was the major factor
in this event at Columbine? **** schools. Emphasis on superficial ****
instead of real human values. Money over honor. Popularity as a way of
life.


Columbine is not isolated except for experiencing the extreme.

Other
schools are disrupted in much the same manner and have their own

sorta
trench coat mafias. As mcuh as CPS has fallen into dispair.... so

have our
schools.


For much the same reasons. A lot of lies. A lot of unrealistic
expectations (even the institutions sometimes buy into that). And
stupid people pointing fingers at the non-problems and ignoring the
real ones.


No.. it's easy to point out the obvious and often superfluous.. and

detract
or ignore the root of the problem.


Yep, you do it constantly. Most especially on the issue of "race." You
are abysmally ignorant and use referances to bigots and fools to
support our stupidity. The stupidity that will one day crack this
world open.

There have been some out-standing school principles and teachers who

stood
up and took responsibility.... but there are not enough. Too many

want to
hide behind their paycheck.

bobb


So, tell us bobb, the wise, what shall we do? How shall we produce
more of those activists?

I note, by the way, some of the skin color and ethnicity of those
folks that were outstanding. Jaime Escalante in California comes to
mind. Probably asian, don't you think.

http://www.paccd.cc.ca.us/75th/alumn...scalante1.html

Or maybe he's just one of those "messicans" that are conspiring to
take over the US. Goodness, he was Bolivian...now what about that. One
of the best casework supervisors I ever met was a Bolivian emigree.
Damn those furreners anyway..right, bobb?

And what was that guy's name and race, the one with the baseball bat
on the east coast. He was likely Irish, as I recall. Among other
things.

Oh year, Joe Clark. Now there's an English name:

http://www.ccebos.org/principals.times.1.1.03.html

Have a nice day, bobb.

Kane


People such as you, bobb.

YOU are a typical "jock" mindset person. Your distain for women.

Your
racist bigotry. Your dismissal of social programs that work.


bobb


Nice chatting with you.

Kane


  #14  
Old May 21st 04, 03:29 AM
Carlson LaVonne
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fern and grammar (so she sez)! was Do Plant and Droaner claiminsufficient spanking for Klebold and Harris caused Columbine?



Fern5827 wrote:

I stand by my grammar.



And for **** sakes learn some grammar. It would be "is not anathema."



ANATHEMA IS A NOUN.


And "sez" is a what, Fern? You who claimed this is proper for one who
writes news headlines (giggle).

I sez Fern is a bit ridiculous.

LaVonne

 




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