Trouble makers?

This has been something I've been battling with for a little while now, and
after a slight 'incident' I think I've had enough.
We live in a townhouse complex. There's quite a few kids here as it's a
family townhouse area. DS is 7 and there's a number of boys his age.
First of all. I know DS is no angel. We have been having some issues with
him and his behaviour. I know he's not a perfect little angel that does no
wrong.
I've witnessed this myself and seen with my own eyes... There's a boy
directly next door to us that's maybe a year younger than DS. When
together, the boys play very well. Hardly any issues at all. They play
nice and if there's any issue, it's mostly 'boys will be boys' and nothing
at all major. There's also a small handful of other boys around the same
age, and once again, generally speaking, these boys can play fairly well
with minimal issues. Even a group of 4 or 5 of them together, nothing
major.

Now there's this other boy around here. He IS a major trouble maker. Quite
frankly, I don't care much for this kid one bit, and I can't speak any
better of the parents. I have told DS over and over again to stay away from
this kid as he does nothing but cause problems. It's not just DS. When
this one kid shows up, no matter who is there, the trouble starts.

I was outside having a smoke on the back patio last night and DS was playing
with the boy next door and one other boy that I've seen but not too familiar
with. This other kid seems like an alright little boy and I've never seen
issues with him. The 3 boys are off playing and all is fine. I think once
the little guy from next door knocked on the door whining that DS was
"trying to throw pine cones at him" - which is whatever, IMO. Again, boys
will be boys, for the most part, and I know this same boy next door was more
than likely trying to throw pine cones at DS and the others as well - just
playing.
So... I'm outside on the patio. The 3 boys were playing fine, but I wasn't
paying much attention at all to them. Next thing I know, I hear some
yelling and shouting. I recognize DS yelling and shouting and a few other
people doing the same. I look over the fence to see DS standing kind of at
the front of a SUV parked on the road... DS is ON the road (which he's not
supposed to be and knows it) and is shouting. In the parking lot, the
trouble maker's mom is standing by her station wagon yelling at DS across
the parking lot.

I walked out of the yard and, ignoring this trouble maker's mom, I called DS
and asked him to come here for a minute. He eventually does, and I ask him
what's going on. Before DS can even say a word to me, the trouble maker's
mom comes towards me yelling and shouting at DS, which gets DS shouting back
at her. Normally DS is not one to shout at an adult, but in all honesty, I
don't blame him. This woman is just yelling at him, which I also don't
think is right. To stand there and yell at kids, and really, I'm actually
getting a little ****ed off.

I'm ignoring this woman and I ask DS what's going on (again, or maybe by
this time it's the 5th time I've asked) and then the woman is yelling at DS
again, and DS is yelling something like, "I didn't do that!" at the woman.
Then this woman turns to me and said, "Look what he did to my son's shirt!"
(yelling and screaming at me) and there's a shirt she's holding up that, to
me, looked like a sloppy eater with a plate of spaghetti or ketchup. She's
hollering the whole time and tells me DS was throwing tomatos at her son.
I'm wondering where the hell DS would randomly find tomatos to throw at
someone. DS then keeps saying he didn't do that and it wasn't him.
At this point, I'm really NOT caring if he did it or not. I'm actually
getting really angry with this woman.

I then turned to DS and told him, again (and infront of both this trouble
making kid and his mother) that DS is NOT allowed to play with this kid.
He's not allowed to talk to him, he needs to stay away. I told DS that if
this kid comes around, he needs to tell him to leave or DS needs to just
walk away. This woman is just shouting who knows what behind me while I'm
talking to DS. DS then says that he, the boy next door and the 3d boy were
playing fine until the trouble maker showed up. I then reminded DS, and the
other 2 boys, that when this kid shows up, trouble ALWAYS starts. ALWAYS.
I told DS that he needs to stay away from kids that aren't nice or are
trouble makers. That's when this lady goes nuts again (not that she really
even stopped) and says that her boy is NOT a trouble maker, mine is, this
other kid is... Every other kid is. I turned to her and told her that these
boys all play fine together - and I've seen this myself - but when her kid
shows up, something always happens. Someone is always getting hurt or
complaining or you name it. I've also found that this trouble maker will
show up when some of the kids are playing. HE then does something (kicks
someone, hits them with a stick, pushes them, whatever) and that kid will
then retaliate and hit or push this kid back. At this point, the trouble
maker then runs home to tell his parents, and then then one of the parents
come out to yell at the boys that were playing very well before their son
shows up causing trouble. This happens EVERY time. Each and every time,
not just sometimes or occasionally. Every time.

Then the mother says to me that DS was in her house in her basement playing
with her son (and I guess some other boys) on Monday. She said DS peed in
her dryer that had clothes in it. Peed on her son's clothes. In all
honesty, this I do not believe, and I told her that. News of DS in her
house is new to me, but still. I don't believe DS peed in her dryer
anyways. I reminder this woman that the neighbour 2 doors down from me
caught this trouble maker peeing on her front step. At this point, this is
when THAT mom turned into a liar and a trouble maker, and while we're on the
subject, her son is too. I don't believe either as I know the woman and
she's not one to be a trouble maker or liar, and her son is a good kid,
again, just your average 6-7 year old, and again, DS and the other boys play
fine together.

I've seen this trouble maker chase the other boys and actually hit them with
sticks or boards or whatever he can find. I've seen him kick others. Last
summer the boy next door and DS were playing in the pool. N was outside
supervising and they were playing fine. The trouble maker came out of
nowhere and wanted to play too. So he got in as well. It wasn't long
before N kicked him out of the pool and sent him home. Boys were playing
fine then out of nowhere, the trouble maker kicked the next door boy. Just
kicked him and canned him pretty good.
There was another time that this kid came into my yard and grabbed the
garden hose and was spraying other kids playing. I guess it was funny and
fine at that point. Then the other boys told him to stop and he wouldn't.
Some other kid managed to get the hose from the trouble maker and sprayed
him pretty good. This is when the trouble maker ran off home crying. Not 5
minutes later, the dad was at my gate yelling at me because DS sprayed his
son with the hose. I saw what had happened, and, for one, it wasn't DS. It
was some other boy. I told this dad that it was HIS son that came uninvited
into my yard, took MY hose without permission and was spraying the other
kids first. I didn't care as no one else seemed to mind on a hot summer
day. I told the dad that everything changed when roles were reversed and it
was his crybaby son getting back what he was just giving to the others,
after they told him to stop, and the dad just went nuts - yelling and
screaming like an idiot, saying his son was not allowed to play in the
water. I just told the dad that if his son knew he wasn't allowed to get
wet, then he should have known he wasn't allowed to get others wet because
if you dish it, chances are you will get it served back at you - especially
with 6, 7, 8 year old boys.

So I'm sorry this is so long. I've just had it with this kid that always
seems to cause trouble and the parents that aren't any better. I've told DS
over and over to stay away from this kid. When this kid has come to the
door, on occasion, I've straight out told him that DS is not allowed to play
with him because trouble always starts and DS always gets into some sort of
trouble, often over something that really isn't a big deal. It's funny
because the other boys in the area all seem to feel the same way as DS...
This kid is NOT fun to play with, someone always gets hurt or in trouble and
the reason is always this same kid causing trouble.
Is there a better way to deal with this?? DS *doesn't* want to play with
this boy, but he always seems to come around and will not leave even when
asked.

Kat wrote:

So I'm sorry this is so long. I've just had it with this kid that always
seems to cause trouble and the parents that aren't any better. I've told DS
over and over to stay away from this kid.

As you can see by this point, that isn't going to work.
It just isn't. They don't have the social skills to figure
out how to get him to leave their group when they're playing
outside. They will believe that just this one time it will be
ok because he's not being bad right now and they figure they can
back out when his behavior becomes unacceptable. This is especially
true if all the other boys don't have the same rule.

When this kid has come to the
door, on occasion, I've straight out told him that DS is not allowed to play
with him because trouble always starts and DS always gets into some sort of
trouble, often over something that really isn't a big deal. It's funny
because the other boys in the area all seem to feel the same way as DS...
This kid is NOT fun to play with, someone always gets hurt or in trouble and
the reason is always this same kid causing trouble.
Is there a better way to deal with this?? DS *doesn't* want to play with
this boy, but he always seems to come around and will not leave even when
asked.

Frankly, the only way to effectively stop it is
to have the kids play in your house, to which you control access,
or for you to be outside with them while they're playing. This
isn't fair, of course, but it's about the only thing that will
successfully result in your child not interacting with this
other child. You can also take a group of kids to a park/playground
outside the other kid's stomping grounds. If the other kid won't
behave, and his parents won't ensure he behaves, and your kid and
his friends are incapable of leaving or driving him off, then
that's about all you're left with.

Best wishes,
Ericka

In article cQduk.54587$hx.42591@pd7urf3no, Kat says...

This has been something I've been battling with for a little while now, and
after a slight 'incident' I think I've had enough.
We live in a townhouse complex. There's quite a few kids here as it's a
family townhouse area. DS is 7 and there's a number of boys his age.
First of all. I know DS is no angel. We have been having some issues with
him and his behaviour. I know he's not a perfect little angel that does no
wrong.
I've witnessed this myself and seen with my own eyes... There's a boy
directly next door to us that's maybe a year younger than DS. When
together, the boys play very well. Hardly any issues at all. They play
nice and if there's any issue, it's mostly 'boys will be boys' and nothing
at all major. There's also a small handful of other boys around the same
age, and once again, generally speaking, these boys can play fairly well
with minimal issues. Even a group of 4 or 5 of them together, nothing
major.

Ericka has great advice - you have to look at what you can control. Worst comes
to worst, you'll need to always have activities your boy and friends he gets
along with to do anytime they're at play.

What do the parents of the other boys think of the situation? It may be worth
bringing it up to them to see what their perception of the situation is. If
everyone is on the same page, wherever the boys are at, and the trouble boy
shows up, the boys can to into whichever of their houses are closest. We had to
do that in my neighborhood when there was a disturbed slightly older boy that
was causing severe problems. But be prepared that they might not have the same
perception about it as you do, and even if they do, might just throw their hands
up about it and not want to go along with any such plan.

Having a rule that your boy calls home whenever he goes into another home would
help, if you dont' have that already. I even had a rule that other boys, if
they are going to play in my house, call their homes first. Even if they just
leave a message. This heads off other problems like the pee-in-dryer story.

Finally, completely ignoring the mom of the trouble maker was probably a bad way
to go. I understand you want to get the story from your son first; I
understand someone yelling and screaming is not one who is good to talk to. But
if you say hello and ask for her number, and say you'll call after you see what
your son has to say about it, might go a long way. Or maybe not. But
completely ignoring just about anyone is pretty sure to **** them off if not
completely enrage them. Even if they're someone you don't want to be exchanging
numbers with, somethimes you have to hear them out calmly, then say "OK, I got
your side of the story; I'll now go home with my son where I can calmly get his
accounting of what happened." At the least, they spend their energy out, and
they usually calm down. And you hadn't said anything on the order of their being
right or anything like that. Worked for me, anyway.

Banty

Ericka Kammerer wrote:

Kat wrote:

So I'm sorry this is so long. I've just had it with this kid that always
seems to cause trouble and the parents that aren't any better. I've told DS
over and over to stay away from this kid.

As you can see by this point, that isn't going to work.
It just isn't. They don't have the social skills to figure
out how to get him to leave their group when they're playing
outside. They will believe that just this one time it will be
ok because he's not being bad right now and they figure they can
back out when his behavior becomes unacceptable. This is especially
true if all the other boys don't have the same rule.

I suspect that this child behaves this way because he is looking for
attention and friends. He doesn't seem to have either, and he doesn't
know how to get them.

When this kid has come to the
door, on occasion, I've straight out told him that DS is not allowed to play
with him because trouble always starts and DS always gets into some sort of
trouble, often over something that really isn't a big deal. It's funny
because the other boys in the area all seem to feel the same way as DS...
This kid is NOT fun to play with, someone always gets hurt or in trouble and
the reason is always this same kid causing trouble.
Is there a better way to deal with this?? DS *doesn't* want to play with
this boy, but he always seems to come around and will not leave even when
asked.

When I had this problem with the little boy next door, my instructions
to my kindergarten age girl was - if you can't play with him, come
inside and play. But don't come running to me to complain. (The
little boy was younger and smaller than my child.) A clear rule -
stay outside and deal or come inside.

She was not allowed to go anyone else's house, and no one came in to
our house - partly because I had a year old child who might be
napping, but also partly because we had just moved into the
neighborhood and we were only going to be there for eight months. When
her older sister was that age, we knew the neighbors better, and she
could go to one child's house.

When this child was a mother, she just stayed outside with her boy
when he was outside. He wasn't outside by himself - he was with her
and with the mothers of the other children he was playing with. This
meant that there was less freedom for the children, but they were
supervised.

Frankly, the only way to effectively stop it is
to have the kids play in your house, to which you control access,
or for you to be outside with them while they're playing. This
isn't fair, of course, but it's about the only thing that will
successfully result in your child not interacting with this
other child. You can also take a group of kids to a park/playground
outside the other kid's stomping grounds. If the other kid won't
behave, and his parents won't ensure he behaves, and your kid and
his friends are incapable of leaving or driving him off, then
that's about all you're left with.

When the little girls that lived next door to us (younger than we were
- maybe two and four and always with runny noses) used to come over
and poop on our porch because they weren't trained, my mother's
solution was not to be at home as much as possible. We were scheduled
to the minute even though my mom was a WOHM.

Rosalie B. wrote:
Ericka Kammerer wrote:

Kat wrote:

So I'm sorry this is so long. I've just had it with this kid that always
seems to cause trouble and the parents that aren't any better. I've told DS
over and over to stay away from this kid.
As you can see by this point, that isn't going to work.
It just isn't. They don't have the social skills to figure
out how to get him to leave their group when they're playing
outside. They will believe that just this one time it will be
ok because he's not being bad right now and they figure they can
back out when his behavior becomes unacceptable. This is especially
true if all the other boys don't have the same rule.

I suspect that this child behaves this way because he is looking for
attention and friends. He doesn't seem to have either, and he doesn't
know how to get them.

True, and the other option is to supervise closely and
befriend the kid. But that's a lot of work and the time to
achieve that level of supervision may not be available.

When I had this problem with the little boy next door, my instructions
to my kindergarten age girl was - if you can't play with him, come
inside and play. But don't come running to me to complain. (The
little boy was younger and smaller than my child.) A clear rule -
stay outside and deal or come inside.

The only problem with that in my experience is that kids
this age don't have such good judgment. They'll decide to stay
outside and deal, but don't have the wherewithal to detect when
the whole situation is going south to the point that it's
dangerous or results in the other kid's parent running out and
screaming at kids (which isn't something the kids should have
to deal with, in my opinion). If the behavior of the other
child and his parents are really unacceptable, then it's not
really an option to allow your child to make the decision to
play with him. I think having the option to stay outside and
deal is a good policy for a nuisance situation, because it's
acceptable for the child to decide it's worth it to put up
with the nuisance in order to stay outside and play.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Ericka Kammerer wrote:

Rosalie B. wrote:
Ericka Kammerer wrote:

Kat wrote:

So I'm sorry this is so long. I've just had it with this kid that always
seems to cause trouble and the parents that aren't any better. I've told DS
over and over to stay away from this kid.
As you can see by this point, that isn't going to work.
It just isn't. They don't have the social skills to figure
out how to get him to leave their group when they're playing
outside. They will believe that just this one time it will be
ok because he's not being bad right now and they figure they can
back out when his behavior becomes unacceptable. This is especially
true if all the other boys don't have the same rule.

I suspect that this child behaves this way because he is looking for
attention and friends. He doesn't seem to have either, and he doesn't
know how to get them.

True, and the other option is to supervise closely and
befriend the kid. But that's a lot of work and the time to
achieve that level of supervision may not be available.

Yes - I wasn't suggesting that the OP do this, but it is probably
non-productive to TELL him that he is a bad kid and isn't allowed to
play with her kid. That's going to escalate his behavior.

When I had this problem with the little boy next door, my instructions
to my kindergarten age girl was - if you can't play with him, come
inside and play. But don't come running to me to complain. (The
little boy was younger and smaller than my child.) A clear rule -
stay outside and deal or come inside.

The only problem with that in my experience is that kids
this age don't have such good judgment. They'll decide to stay
outside and deal, but don't have the wherewithal to detect when
the whole situation is going south to the point that it's
dangerous or results in the other kid's parent running out and
screaming at kids (which isn't something the kids should have
to deal with, in my opinion). If the behavior of the other

In this case, the kid was pretty much neglected. The dad worked
second shift and would come home about 2 am, and have dinner with the
mom, and then go to bed pretty late and they would both sleep in. The
older sister got herself off to school, and this little kid was left
more or less on his own. I never had any conversation with his
parents or him either, and since I knew my kid was bigger and probably
stronger, I was not worried.

child and his parents are really unacceptable, then it's not
really an option to allow your child to make the decision to
play with him. I think having the option to stay outside and
deal is a good policy for a nuisance situation, because it's
acceptable for the child to decide it's worth it to put up
with the nuisance in order to stay outside and play.

Yes in the case of the OP, the child isn't capable of making the
decision or dealing so I think that child should be absolutely
prohibited from going into anyone else's house. He doesn't have to
make decisions in that case - he just is not allowed. And/or if he
is playing outside it has to be with supervision. The other mom's can
take it in turn if they are friends.

Rosalie B. wrote:
Ericka Kammerer wrote:

Rosalie B. wrote:
Ericka Kammerer wrote:

I suspect that this child behaves this way because he is looking for
attention and friends. He doesn't seem to have either, and he doesn't
know how to get them.
True, and the other option is to supervise closely and
befriend the kid. But that's a lot of work and the time to
achieve that level of supervision may not be available.

Yes - I wasn't suggesting that the OP do this, but it is probably
non-productive to TELL him that he is a bad kid and isn't allowed to
play with her kid. That's going to escalate his behavior.

I agree. Not to mention that given his parents' behavior,
perhaps it's not all his fault he is the way he is :-/ I would
certainly have compassion for the child, as difficult as he
is. There are times that I've dealt with this sort of situation
by laying down very, very clear house rules, allowing the kids
to play together under close supervision, and booting the kid
out of the house the instant the house rules are transgressed.
It's a lot to ask of someone to do that, however, and may be
risky given the kids' parents' behavior. Who knows what
they'll come up with if you send the kid out of your house
for breaking the rules?! Still, it's a shame when parents
allow their kids to grow up without the skills they'll need to
get ahead in life.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Hi --

A child who behave consistently in this kind of aggressive manner is a
child with problems. He may have innate psychological issues, he may
have clueless parents, but it's also possible that he's being abused or
neglected at home. Think carefully about how you want to proceed. You
can simply supervise your own child far more when outside of the house,
or you can supervise this other child with your child and befriend him,
or you can see if there's evidence that might make you want to call the
police about him for his own protection. (I'm not saying there IS a
problem with abuse or neglect, just that you may wish to be alert to the
possibility.)

Good luck,
--Beth Kevles
-THE-COM-HERE
http://web.mit.edu/kevles/www/nomilk.html -- a page for the milk-allergic
Disclaimer: Nothing in this message should be construed as medical
advice. Please consult with your own medical practicioner.

NOTE: No email is read at my MIT address. Use the GMAIL one if you would
like me to reply.

"Kat" wrote in message
news:cQduk.54587$hx.42591@pd7urf3no...
This has been something I've been battling with for a little while now,
and after a slight 'incident' I think I've had enough.
We live in a townhouse complex. There's quite a few kids here as it's a
family townhouse area. DS is 7 and there's a number of boys his age.
First of all. I know DS is no angel. We have been having some issues
with him and his behaviour. I know he's not a perfect little angel that
does no wrong.
I've witnessed this myself and seen with my own eyes... There's a boy
directly next door to us that's maybe a year younger than DS. When
together, the boys play very well. Hardly any issues at all. They play
nice and if there's any issue, it's mostly 'boys will be boys' and nothing
at all major. There's also a small handful of other boys around the same
age, and once again, generally speaking, these boys can play fairly well
with minimal issues. Even a group of 4 or 5 of them together, nothing
major.
snip
So I'm sorry this is so long. I've just had it with this kid that always
seems to cause trouble and the parents that aren't any better. I've told
DS over and over to stay away from this kid. When this kid has come to
the door, on occasion, I've straight out told him that DS is not allowed
to play with him because trouble always starts and DS always gets into
some sort of trouble, often over something that really isn't a big deal.
It's funny because the other boys in the area all seem to feel the same
way as DS... This kid is NOT fun to play with, someone always gets hurt or
in trouble and the reason is always this same kid causing trouble.
Is there a better way to deal with this?? DS *doesn't* want to play with
this boy, but he always seems to come around and will not leave even when
asked.
I think the first thing I'd do is speak to the other mothers. I'd say
"yesterday this occurred. I'd like to get to the bottom of it, as it doesn't
sound like my ds to do that sort of thing, and I want to get my facts
straight." If the parent was willing to discuss it then, I'd also say that
"ds was accused of the drier incident", did your ds say anything about it?"
If the other parent feels the same way then you can suggest they play at
your place/take them out/take it in turns.
However you have got the potential issue if the other parent says "I was
told your ds does...." When you're watching he will behave differently, so
it's useful to know the other side.
I don't think at age 7yo you can expect him to be mature enough to go away
from his friends that he was playing nicely with if the other boy turns up.
It's not fair really to expect him to, and if he did, then the other lad
might find it a great tease to turn up, just to see your ds go off on his
own.
Debbie

"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
. ..
Kat wrote:

So I'm sorry this is so long. I've just had it with this kid that always
seems to cause trouble and the parents that aren't any better. I've told
DS over and over to stay away from this kid.

As you can see by this point, that isn't going to work.
It just isn't. They don't have the social skills to figure
out how to get him to leave their group when they're playing
outside. They will believe that just this one time it will be
ok because he's not being bad right now and they figure they can
back out when his behavior becomes unacceptable. This is especially
true if all the other boys don't have the same rule.

When this kid has come to the door, on occasion, I've straight out told
him that DS is not allowed to play with him because trouble always starts
and DS always gets into some sort of trouble, often over something that
really isn't a big deal. It's funny because the other boys in the area
all seem to feel the same way as DS... This kid is NOT fun to play with,
someone always gets hurt or in trouble and the reason is always this same
kid causing trouble.
Is there a better way to deal with this?? DS *doesn't* want to play with
this boy, but he always seems to come around and will not leave even when
asked.

Frankly, the only way to effectively stop it is
to have the kids play in your house, to which you control access,
or for you to be outside with them while they're playing. This
isn't fair, of course, but it's about the only thing that will
successfully result in your child not interacting with this
other child. You can also take a group of kids to a park/playground
outside the other kid's stomping grounds. If the other kid won't
behave, and his parents won't ensure he behaves, and your kid and
his friends are incapable of leaving or driving him off, then that's about
all you're left with.

If this was possible for me, I'd do it. I can't and won't have a bunch of
kids playing in my house. This place is just far too small (for even us to
live in it, nevermind add some young boys playing in here) and even the
yards are all very, very small.
DDs also nap during the day, it's just NOT possible (or something I care to
even try) to have kids play in here. I can't handle that.
I also can't manage a park or similar with my own by myself, nevermind a
bunch of kids belonging to other people.
Maybe I could try and step out a little more often when DS is outside
playing - I normally do random checks to see him and make sure or I do a
random call if he is not directly in our outside of the yard. I also will
sneak out of the house for 3 mins to walk to the area in this complex that I
know DS and the other kids will play soccer or tag (or whatever)... Maybe
just doing a check a little more often wouldn't be hard to do, but having
kids in here or taking them outside is just... Well, that just makes my head
spin and hurt lol

Best wishes,
Ericka