Does this sound fair? (Vent)

I'm generally trying to work out whether I'm being fair on dh or whether I'm
expecting too much.
I tried to discuss this with him yesterday, but reasonable and 3 hours sleep
doesn't really go together, for me anyway.

With #1 the jobs were shared out in the evening as follows.
One of us cook, the other washes up. Dh bathed #1 and I then fed her and put
her to bed. Bearing in mind that I did this until she was nearly 3, so this
was quite long standing. I used to reckon the 10 minutes while he bathed her
was the only time I could guarantee to myself, because if she woke at night
he wouldn't disturb. Now she slept through from 8 weeks (12 hour nights) and
at 10 months started usually sleeping 2 hours in the afternoon, so I usually
had time to myself, but I was still "on duty" as you might say.

With #2, we still have the arrangement that one cooks one washes up. During
the week I almost always cook as dh isn't home in time usually.
However dh started by saying he couldn't cope with 2 children to bath so I
had to help there. Once #2 could sit up he could cope with bathing them, but
not dressing both of them. So basically I lost my time to myself.
Now #1 has stopped sleeping in the afternoon, but is at pre-school 4
mornings a week. #2 usually has 1+ hour sleep in the afternoon. So I only
have 1 of them for some of the day, which is better. However #2 hasn't slept
through. Even usually at the moment her best stretch is about 4 hours, and
so I'm usually feeding twice a night. If #1 wakes and needs help then I have
to deal with her too. If I'm in the middle of feeding and I ask dh to deal
with her he usually takes so long to actually go to her (it's usually
something like she needs her water filling up or something quick) that by
the time he's gone through #1 has shouted through/come through enough to
disturb #2 thoroughly and she then wants to play and I have difficulty
getting her back to sleep.
Well, the evening routine according to me should now go like this:
6:00dh arrives home
We eat as soon as possible. (usually about 6:15) assuming I've cooked.
7:00 dh takes the pair of them upstairs and baths and dresses them. #1 can
do herself so it's not that much effort.
7:30 #1 goes to bed and dh can do the washing up.
8:00 I start feeding #2
9-9:30 #2 goes down.
I'll add that usually the first time #2 wakes me up for her feed dh is often
still up or just going to bed.

In that I get 10 minutes break (probably the only break I've had since we
got up) and dh should manage to finish everything in the evening by 8:00.

However this is what actually happens:
about 6:10 dh arrives home. If he's home earlier then usually the dinner
isn't ready because I can't have it ready earlier if he won't be home.
6:20+ start dinner.
7:00 Dh starts doing the washing up. Now at this point I usually suggest he
takes them upstairs. But he will only take them upstairs if I do the washing
up.
So either:
7:10 dh goes upstairs and I do the washing up
or 7:00 dh does the washing up 7:20 dh starts trying to persuade #1 to leave
what she's now got busy in to go upstairs.
Whatever happens I am usually called upstairs more than once to do things
(for example he won't give #2 medicine because "I'm better")
about 8:00-8:15 #1 goes to bed and dh comes downstairs and I start feeding
#2.
9-9:30 #2 (hopefully) goes to sleep.

The reason this came up yesterday is that #2 has a bad chest infection and
Friday night/Saturday night I was up for most of the night. I think I had
about 4 hours sleep maximum each night. So I fell asleep in the afternoon on
Saturday and dh took #1 off. At the end of the day he said he'd been "girled
out" because he'd had one of them all day (actually he hadn't but I forgot
to point this out to him, he must have had at least 30 minutes off in the
morning when I had them both) so I said now he knew how I felt because I had
that 7 days a week. (slight exaggeration because #2 usually goes in crèche
at church) and said that was why I valued the 10 minutes during the bath so
much, so could we go to my routine. His response was that if he did that
then he wouldn't finish doing stuff till 8:30. I pointed out that that would
still be earlier than I usually finish, but he seems to think that feeding
is "me" time.

I hardly ever get a break from both of them. I think I've had 1 Saturday
morning total in the last 4 weeks, when dh took them both off for #1's
ballet. Officially we do every other week, but one of the mornings that was
meant to be his he had something else booked that morning. I think I did 7
out of 10 of the ballet. In the evenings I just want to go to sleep because
I'm so tired and I never had chance to do the things that I need to do when
the children aren't here, let alone anything I want to do. if I try doing
these things in the evening then dh says "don't blame me if you're
tired"-like he usually goes to bed about 1am, but he does need less sleep
than me. For example at the moment I'm feeding #2, who's feeling very sorry
for herself-nearly as sorry as I am :-)

I just feel that since having #2 he's decreased what he does-ie I do half
the bath, and not taken on anything else.
Bearing in mind that I am tired and seeming my point of view...do I sound
reasonable..
Mind you it could be worse-I could be married to "Ian"
Debbie

Welches wrote:

I just feel that since having #2 he's decreased what he does-ie I do half
the bath, and not taken on anything else.
Bearing in mind that I am tired and seeming my point of view...do I sound
reasonable..

Yes. I would sit him down, explain that I desperately need
some time away from kids for myself other than sleeping, and would
promptly schedule something outside the house to do on a regular
basis. He's got some learned helplessness going on (which you've
enabled) and in my experience, the best way to fix that is to simply
not be there for specific times anymore.
For comparative purposes, our routine with a preschooler
and a toddler was generally:

5:30ish DH gets home
shortly thereafter we eat dinner (whether I've cooked, DH got
takeout, DH cooked something fast, restaurant, or
whatever).
after dinner clear the table (if we didn't go out)
by 7pm DH plays with the kids, maybe bathes them
by 7:45 DH gets the kids ready for bed
about 8pm DH puts the kids to bed, maybe with my
help (if someone's nursing or whatever)
8pm DH does dishes
nighttime I did almost all of the nighttime feedings/etc.

So, as you can see, I'm pretty much off the clock once DH
gets home. I help out, but he's largely in charge of
parenting at that point since I'd been doing it all day.
We did *not* do baths every night. I don't see any need
for it, and it wasn't a crucial part of the schedule
necessary to get anyone to sleep or anything like that.
My babies generally hit an 8pm bedtime around a year old
or a bit earlier. Before that, the baby might be up a
little bit later.

Now that we have three kids, and the older two
have a lot of activities, we often have more stuff going on
during that timeframe. We're often out for activities and
there's homework to supervise and such, so I no longer have
the evenings "off." It takes two parents the whole time,
for the most part, but DH still puts the kids to bed and
still does the dishes (usually after the kids are down).
We're trying to work towards the kids doing dishes (they
help clear now), but activities and homework are currently
getting in the way on weeknights.

Of course, this week it's all going to hell in a
handbasket ;-) Nutcracker is upon us, which means
rehearsals or performances every night this week except
Wednesday (and on Wed. I'll be working backstage even
though the boys won't be there). So, DH will have
the toddler all on his own every night and most of
the weekend.

Anyway, as I said, start having some things
outside the house. Start with a standing date with a
group of friends to go out for a few hours. We have
a Mom's Night Out that meets once a month. I either
fix dinner for the family or DH takes the kids out/
brings home takeout and then I leave around 7:15 and
have dinner with friends and chat until around 10pm.
You could also take a class that meets once a week
in the evening. Or, you could do something on the
weekend. Find something that would be really fun
and replenishing for you. You have to take care of
yourself. If you don't, no one else is going to do
it for you and you're going to burn out. Believe
me, while the dynamic changes as your kids get older
and more able to do things for themselves, it
doesn't get easier! They get more things going on
and the workload increases, even if it's different
work! Don't think this is just a matter of gritting
your teeth and getting through until your girls are
a bit older.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Welches wrote:

I just feel that since having #2 he's decreased what he does-ie I do
half the bath, and not taken on anything else.
Bearing in mind that I am tired and seeming my point of view...do I
sound reasonable..
Mind you it could be worse-I could be married to

While I haven't been in this exact situation I've been in similar :-)

I would continue to encourage his involvement in the night time routine,
even if that meant doing it jointly for awhile. Maybe you can switch your
routine around a little to make it easier on everyone. For instance, does
the bath need to be at night or can you do that during the day. That way
you could spend 15 minutes getting their jammies on while dh does the dishes
and then he would have them for 30-40 minutes playing, reading stories,
watching TV, whatever.

Then I would schedule something that you can do for yourself so you don't
burn out. Make it routine and often once or twice a week at least.
Schedule it while your dh is off work then just go. He'll discover that it
isn't so bad :-) If it isn't an organized thing just take the same hour or
two off every week and go to coffee, window shopping, what have you.

I'd also give him one evening off a week where you do it all. It isn't the
same for working parents but there is still a level of burn out if they
don't get any alone time, especially if they are the type of personality
that requires that.
--
Nikki

*hugs* my DH does not do 99% of the cleaning though I must admit he made me
proud today with how well he cleaned the livingroom. He has never given
Bonnie or Xavier a bath and he has never done dishes in the year we have
lived in this apartment. That said I do get to sleep in everyday because he
works 3rd shift and he has discovered if he wants to check his email it is
easier to do if I am not up Now I just have to teach him not to give
Bonnie Frosted Mini Wheats and we will be all set.. trust me it is bad..
Anyway you have the right to feel how you feel but if your DH is anything
like mine it is probably going to be easier to sit down and tell him how you
feel and then he will go off and pout and then sometime down the road he may
or may not start doing what you asked like it was his idea to begin with

Tori

"Welches" wrote in message
...
I'm generally trying to work out whether I'm being fair on dh or whether
I'm expecting too much.
I tried to discuss this with him yesterday, but reasonable and 3 hours
sleep doesn't really go together, for me anyway.

With #1 the jobs were shared out in the evening as follows.
One of us cook, the other washes up. Dh bathed #1 and I then fed her and
put her to bed. Bearing in mind that I did this until she was nearly 3, so
this was quite long standing. I used to reckon the 10 minutes while he
bathed her was the only time I could guarantee to myself, because if she
woke at night he wouldn't disturb. Now she slept through from 8 weeks (12
hour nights) and at 10 months started usually sleeping 2 hours in the
afternoon, so I usually had time to myself, but I was still "on duty" as
you might say.

With #2, we still have the arrangement that one cooks one washes up.
During the week I almost always cook as dh isn't home in time usually.
However dh started by saying he couldn't cope with 2 children to bath so I
had to help there. Once #2 could sit up he could cope with bathing them,
but not dressing both of them. So basically I lost my time to myself.
Now #1 has stopped sleeping in the afternoon, but is at pre-school 4
mornings a week. #2 usually has 1+ hour sleep in the afternoon. So I only
have 1 of them for some of the day, which is better. However #2 hasn't
slept through. Even usually at the moment her best stretch is about 4
hours, and so I'm usually feeding twice a night. If #1 wakes and needs
help then I have to deal with her too. If I'm in the middle of feeding and
I ask dh to deal with her he usually takes so long to actually go to her
(it's usually something like she needs her water filling up or something
quick) that by the time he's gone through #1 has shouted through/come
through enough to disturb #2 thoroughly and she then wants to play and I
have difficulty getting her back to sleep.
Well, the evening routine according to me should now go like this:
6:00dh arrives home
We eat as soon as possible. (usually about 6:15) assuming I've cooked.
7:00 dh takes the pair of them upstairs and baths and dresses them. #1 can
do herself so it's not that much effort.
7:30 #1 goes to bed and dh can do the washing up.
8:00 I start feeding #2
9-9:30 #2 goes down.
I'll add that usually the first time #2 wakes me up for her feed dh is
often still up or just going to bed.

In that I get 10 minutes break (probably the only break I've had since we
got up) and dh should manage to finish everything in the evening by 8:00.

However this is what actually happens:
about 6:10 dh arrives home. If he's home earlier then usually the dinner
isn't ready because I can't have it ready earlier if he won't be home.
6:20+ start dinner.
7:00 Dh starts doing the washing up. Now at this point I usually suggest
he takes them upstairs. But he will only take them upstairs if I do the
washing up.
So either:
7:10 dh goes upstairs and I do the washing up
or 7:00 dh does the washing up 7:20 dh starts trying to persuade #1 to
leave what she's now got busy in to go upstairs.
Whatever happens I am usually called upstairs more than once to do things
(for example he won't give #2 medicine because "I'm better")
about 8:00-8:15 #1 goes to bed and dh comes downstairs and I start feeding
#2.
9-9:30 #2 (hopefully) goes to sleep.

The reason this came up yesterday is that #2 has a bad chest infection and
Friday night/Saturday night I was up for most of the night. I think I had
about 4 hours sleep maximum each night. So I fell asleep in the afternoon
on Saturday and dh took #1 off. At the end of the day he said he'd been
"girled out" because he'd had one of them all day (actually he hadn't but
I forgot to point this out to him, he must have had at least 30 minutes
off in the morning when I had them both) so I said now he knew how I felt
because I had that 7 days a week. (slight exaggeration because #2 usually
goes in crèche at church) and said that was why I valued the 10 minutes
during the bath so much, so could we go to my routine. His response was
that if he did that then he wouldn't finish doing stuff till 8:30. I
pointed out that that would still be earlier than I usually finish, but he
seems to think that feeding is "me" time.

I hardly ever get a break from both of them. I think I've had 1 Saturday
morning total in the last 4 weeks, when dh took them both off for #1's
ballet. Officially we do every other week, but one of the mornings that
was meant to be his he had something else booked that morning. I think I
did 7 out of 10 of the ballet. In the evenings I just want to go to sleep
because I'm so tired and I never had chance to do the things that I need
to do when the children aren't here, let alone anything I want to do. if I
try doing these things in the evening then dh says "don't blame me if
you're tired"-like he usually goes to bed about 1am, but he does need less
sleep than me. For example at the moment I'm feeding #2, who's feeling
very sorry for herself-nearly as sorry as I am :-)

I just feel that since having #2 he's decreased what he does-ie I do half
the bath, and not taken on anything else.
Bearing in mind that I am tired and seeming my point of view...do I sound
reasonable..
Mind you it could be worse-I could be married to "Ian"
Debbie

It sounds like you do need to sit down with DH and have a talk. He probably
doesn't realize (I mean truly realize) that having absolutely NO break with
two young children means you're dead tired by the time 5:30 comes around,
never mind 6 or 6:10 pm.

I didn't look that closely at the schedules (ideal and actual) to see how
they differed, but obviously the ideal one is just that: ideal. Probably
won't happen even with the best intentions. How about changing the way
things ar e done? Everyone helps with clean-up? We do this although DD is
a lot older than your children and cleaning is actually enjoyable and it
goes by pretty quickly. (We give DS a few spoons and a plastic bowl to play
with, or a damp sponge and he wipes his high chair. DD helps loads the
dishwasher and wipes down the counter) Then DH can take the kids up to
bath, giving you some time alone.

Jeanne

Hi -

The question is not simply whether YOU get 10 minutes off, but whether
DH does instead of you.

You've got another kid, and that means more work for both of you. That's
just the way life is. Now, if DH is getting time off and you're NOT,
then remind him that you need some time too and how can he help you
out. If neither of you is getting any time off, then you need to
approach that together so that, at least a few times a week, you each
get the extra time you need.

Are the two of you getting any time off together, by the way?

Some thoughts that might help:

Now that #1 is older, arrange playdates. That gives you some extra
time, perhaps while #2 is napping, to yourself. If you pick
successfully, you can trade playdates and the child who comes over will
play well and the pair won't need excessive supervision. (I found that
with many playdates it was EASIER to have the second child over than to
have mine at home alone. Even after #2 came along.)

Babysitters. Wonderful inventions. Sometimes expensive.

Lower standards. Let the dirty dishes sit in the sink overnight. Then
#2 can help you do them in the morning along with all the other
household tasks. (I admit to always wiping down the table, though.)
See what corners you can cut at YOUR house and still tolerate living in
it.

Good luck, and I hope you get some rest,
--Beth Kevles

http://web.mit.edu/kevles/www/nomilk.html -- a page for the milk-allergic
Disclaimer: Nothing in this message should be construed as medical
advice. Please consult with your own medical practicioner.

NOTE: No email is read at my MIT address. Use the AOL one if you would
like me to reply.

"Welches" wrote in message news:

I just feel that since having #2 he's decreased what he does-ie I do half
the bath, and not taken on anything else.
Bearing in mind that I am tired and seeming my point of view...do I sound
reasonable..
Mind you it could be worse-I could be married to "Ian"
Debbie

I totally hear where you're coming from, and I wanted to echo Ericka
in suggesting that you start adjusting the situation to make it so
that you do get the time you need.

I was in a similar situation, only my husband works evenings, so he
'could never' help with cleanup after dinner, or baths, or putting
them to bed...or if they called for us overrnight, or breakfast (too
tired). The only time he could 'help' me was after I'd gotten them up
and dressed and fed in the morning, and then he'd want to play or
watch TV with them, and I'd be really resentful, 'cause I did the hard
part! We did get into the habit of him taking the toddler for
breakfast, but he couldn't do both kids, and that took away any time
in the afternoons, because he'd need a nap, then (the kids didn't take
one)!

I truly think the more I proved I was able to do (like both of the
kids for months on end, 24 hours a day), the less he felt obligated to
become able to do. The more competent I got, the less he tried. And
admittedly, I liked feeling like I could do it all, on the good days
-- but the bad days were horrible.

So I definitely suggest you do what I didn't, and leave him to figure
it out for long enough that he has to. It will totally pay off -- and
while, in my case, it has worked out over time, I wish I hadn't been
willing to wait until they're 3 and 5 to force the issue.

Tina.

Get an automatic dishwasher.-Jitney

In article , jitney says...

Get an automatic dishwasher.-Jitney

And consider take out and going to a diner about once a week.

Banty

In article ,
"Welches" wrote:

I just feel that since having #2 he's decreased what he does-ie I do half
the bath, and not taken on anything else.
Bearing in mind that I am tired and seeming my point of view...do I sound
reasonable..
Mind you it could be worse-I could be married to "Ian"
Debbie

I understand your anger and frustration. My husband is the same.

The most annoying aspect of it is not so much having to do it all
yourself - plenty of women have no partner at all to help them with
anything and they get by fine - I know I don't NEED DH's help. However,
he agreed to do X number of chores and he's let me down by not keeping
to that promise. This unreliability aspect really grinds at you at the
end of the day when you are tired and could kill for ten minutes to
yourself. It gets even worse when they make out that YOU are somehow
unreasonable for expecting them to keep a promise they made when there
was only one baby in the house.

In some ways, I now understand why household chores used to be divided
into outside (mens) and inside (women's) work. It's easier to get
everything done inside the house when you are not waiting for someone to
complete a task that they have no intention of completing. In your
situation, I would sit DH down and explain to him that it was crazy that
a sink full of dishes was causing so much strain on your marriage, day
in day out. Tell him that you NEED to get a dishwasher and that his new
task will be to pack it and turn it on every night.



eggs