red-shirting

"bizby40" wrote in message
...

"toypup" wrote in message
et...
spot for me. Maybe I can be enlighted to the other side of this. If the
kids are especially slow learners or something, I understand, but
red-shirting an average kid? Like I said, it's not hurting DS, but it
bothers me nonetheless, because I see the little ones struggling.

I live in an area where not a lot of red-shirting really goes on.

You're lucky. There was a whole group of moms (about 4 boys) who got
together and red-shirted their boys. They also got into DS's class
together. There is another boy who I know is red-shirted. I'm not sure how
many others. That is 5 out of a class of 20. I'm betting there are more
that I don't know about.

I don't mind red-shirting a kid who is just about on the cut-off date, as
that doesn't appear to me much like red-shirting at all. I know there are
special circumstance when the child just isn't ready, but that is not the
case here.

"Nikki" wrote in message
news:YpedndygfMsUu7TYnZ2dnUVZ_rCdnZ2d@prairiewave. com...

I think once so many of the kids are red-shirted the teachers start to
teach at a higher expectation, which compounds the issues for kids the
'correct' age.

Yes, that is a problem. And then of course, there are 4yo's who can handle
it, so everyone thinks it's okay. If it's really okay, why red-shirt at
all?

In article , toypup says...


"Nikki" wrote in message
news:YpedndygfMsUu7TYnZ2dnUVZ_rCdnZ2d@prairiewave .com...

I think once so many of the kids are red-shirted the teachers start to
teach at a higher expectation, which compounds the issues for kids the
'correct' age.

Yes, that is a problem. And then of course, there are 4yo's who can handle
it, so everyone thinks it's okay. If it's really okay, why red-shirt at
all?




For the teachers - it sits older, more developmentaly advanced kids to the high
stakes test against which they and the schools are measured.

For the parents - a feeling that they're giving their kids a let up on other
kids, so will be better and be more confident.

For the kids - boredom, restlestness in thier later teens.

Horray for redshirting. :-/


At least in my area, the passion for redshirting, especially boys, has waned a
bit. There's kinda a counter-reaction due to a greater awareness of the
implications.

Banty

We held our middle kid back a year. Here in Toronto, the cut off date
for age is Dec 31 (i.e. you start Junior Kindergarten the September you
are 4 or turning 4 by Christmas, Kindergarten at 5 or turning 5, Grade
1 at 6 or turning 6.

Our middle kid, a son, has a Christmas birthday, so he was literally
the youngest in his class. He was also extremely immature, tiny, and
has an autism spectrum disorder (which we didn't know he had when he
started in junior kindergarten). We just knew he was not on par with
the other kids.

Flash ahead to the end of kindergarten. Still not ready for prime time.
We tried to get him held back for another year of kindergarten, but the
school insisted he HAD to go to Grade 1. Major fiasco. He started
getting tons of extra help, and by mid year, it was clear, he was in
deep trouble academically and starting to have more and more behaviour
issues related to his academic problems. So, we insisted....and this
time the school agreed, we'd have him repeat Grade 1. Don't think for a
minute we didn't have major angst over this - but halfway through first
grade he was like 6 going on 4. Its pretty much unheard of to hold a
kid back here. Fortunately our school is small so there are lots of
split grades, and no one thought anything of it (i.e. most of the kids
are vague about what grades their classmates are in in those primary
years).

Holding him back proved to be the best move we could have made, hands
down, no doubts at all. He repeated grade 1 continuing with tons of
extra help - and incidentally, his second time through he was not As,
he was Bs and Cs, so finally kinda sorta up to where he should have
been the first time through. He's not lacking in brains, he just wasn't
ready on many fronts. We continued intensive extra support until Grade
5 (he had an IEP). He's now in Grade 7, doing great in a standard
program. We gave him the gift of a little more time to grow up, and
mature, more time with extra help to get a good foundation under him
with reading (phonics based, which made a HUGE difference). His
spelling is still kind of creative (he takes things very literally and
tends to over apply rules), but his ability to read and comprehend is
excellent.

Incidentally, we have a daughter whose birthday is December 26th, and
also the youngest in her grade, but she has done just fine and we
didn't need to consider holding her back - she did need a lot of extra
help to get reading going, but her social skills and maturity, physical
coordination etc. etc. were not the same kind of issues they were with
her brother.

For me, as a parent, its not about what other kids do or don't do. It
isn't a competition. Its about what is right for the particular kid. I
could care less about the other kids or what their parents do or don't
do.

Mary G
Mom of son 15 Grade 10 (turns 16 in Feb), Son 12 Grade 7 (13 in Dec)
and Daughter 8 Grade 4 (turns 9 in Dec)

toypup wrote:
A significant number of kids in DS's class were red-shirted. They are
normal kids whose parents wanted to give them a leg up. I hardly think this
is fair. DS is competing against children who are a whole year older than
he. They are going to be 7 yo and in kindergarten. As DH said, that's an
embarrassment. His sister was 7 yo when she started 3rd grade. DS is doing
well against them, but some younger kids aren't faring as well. It makes
the 4yo's feel like failures because they can't measure up to the 6 yo's.
The teacher's and parent's expectations of normal 5 yo's abilities end up
being skewed. I'm told the 4 yo's will catch up, but why should they start
out feeling like they have to? Why should they be measured against someone
who should be a whole year ahead? Are these parents fooling themselves into
thinking they have the best and brightest kids in the class when in reality
their kids are really behind? Can you all weigh in on this? It's a sore
spot for me. Maybe I can be enlighted to the other side of this. If the
kids are especially slow learners or something, I understand, but
red-shirting an average kid? Like I said, it's not hurting DS, but it
bothers me nonetheless, because I see the little ones struggling.

There's very little evidence that academic redshirting
is beneficial, except in those chicken-and-egg situations where
previous redshirting has affected the curriculum such that the
curriculum is no longer developmentally appropriate for kids
who aren't redshirted. There is also some evidence that
redshirting has negative effects down the line (during
adolescence). One can just hope that it's a fad that
eventually passes.

Best wishes,
Ericka

"toypup" wrote:

"Rosalie B." wrote in message
.. .
So I think it totally depends on the child, and it is also probably
better evaluated by the parent and not by a some arbitrary system. I
would blame the parents who put the child into the system early and
without the skills that they need rather than the system.

But I think they are in it early and without skills because their skills are
being compared to kids who are a whole year older. That is my problem. I
don't think they are too young at all, if compared with kids their own age.

If the 'norm' is five, and they are four, then they are in too early,
and the parents should have red-shirted them.

"toypup" wrote in message
om...

"Nikki" wrote in message
news:YpedndygfMsUu7TYnZ2dnUVZ_rCdnZ2d@prairiewave. com...

I think once so many of the kids are red-shirted the teachers start to
teach at a higher expectation, which compounds the issues for kids the
'correct' age.

Yes, that is a problem. And then of course, there are 4yo's who can
handle it, so everyone thinks it's okay. If it's really okay, why
red-shirt at all?

In my school you can't start at 4yo. Well you could be 4yo for 3 days and
then you'd turn 5yo as the cut off is 5yo by Sept. 1st.

Some people red-shirt hoping that their more developed sons will have an
edge in sports. That probably works but it seems awfully misguided to me.
Lots of boys simply can't sit still and so the teachers recommend
red-shirting because they have easier classes. I asked lots and lots of
people for advice when I was trying to figure out what to do with Hunter.
Hunter isn't even hyper. Most of them didn't know him. All but one teacher
(and she was older) told me to red-shirt him. Others simply want what is
best for their kids. That is why I red-shirted Luke. I don't a
professional athlete, a little genius, or for my kid to have an 'edge'. I
simply want him to be OK. I want him to like school. I do worry *a lot*
about what this is going to mean for my boys in highschool. My crystal ball
tells me we'll probably be fine with Hunter but Luke might be a different
story. He's going to need to be *busy*.


--
Nikki, mama to
Hunter 4/99
Luke 4/01
Brock 4/06
Ben 4/06

"Rosalie B." wrote in message
...
"toypup" wrote:

"Rosalie B." wrote in message
. ..
So I think it totally depends on the child, and it is also probably
better evaluated by the parent and not by a some arbitrary system. I
would blame the parents who put the child into the system early and
without the skills that they need rather than the system.

But I think they are in it early and without skills because their skills
are
being compared to kids who are a whole year older. That is my problem. I
don't think they are too young at all, if compared with kids their own
age.

If the 'norm' is five, and they are four, then they are in too early,
and the parents should have red-shirted them.


The norm here is whoever turns 5 yo by December 2, so the class should be
starting with 4-5 yo's. The 4 yo is right where he should be. It's the
6yo's who should not have been red-shirted who are pulling the standards up
to unreasonable levels for the 4 yo's. It is still a class with a majority
4-5 yo's, but the minority is inching up past 25%. Why must kids have to
start schooll later nowadays? Why must everyone be red-shirted? If this
trend continues, 6 yo's will need to be redshirted for kindergarten. You
will have a whole class of 7 yo kindergarteners. Where will it end?

"Nikki" wrote in message
news:UuKdnaHE4KjGorTYnZ2dnUVZ_tydnZ2d@prairiewave. com...

"toypup" wrote in message
om...

"Nikki" wrote in message
news:YpedndygfMsUu7TYnZ2dnUVZ_rCdnZ2d@prairiewave. com...

I think once so many of the kids are red-shirted the teachers start to
teach at a higher expectation, which compounds the issues for kids the
'correct' age.

Yes, that is a problem. And then of course, there are 4yo's who can
handle it, so everyone thinks it's okay. If it's really okay, why
red-shirt at all?

In my school you can't start at 4yo. Well you could be 4yo for 3 days and
then you'd turn 5yo as the cut off is 5yo by Sept. 1st.

Where we are, the cutoff is December 2. School is year-round, which means
it starts in June. Some kids are only 4 1/2 when school starts.

"toypup" wrote:


"Nikki" wrote in message
news:UuKdnaHE4KjGorTYnZ2dnUVZ_tydnZ2d@prairiewave .com...

"toypup" wrote in message
om...

"Nikki" wrote in message
news:YpedndygfMsUu7TYnZ2dnUVZ_rCdnZ2d@prairiewave. com...

I think once so many of the kids are red-shirted the teachers start to
teach at a higher expectation, which compounds the issues for kids the
'correct' age.

Yes, that is a problem. And then of course, there are 4yo's who can
handle it, so everyone thinks it's okay. If it's really okay, why
red-shirt at all?

In my school you can't start at 4yo. Well you could be 4yo for 3 days and
then you'd turn 5yo as the cut off is 5yo by Sept. 1st.

Where we are, the cutoff is December 2. School is year-round, which means
it starts in June. Some kids are only 4 1/2 when school starts.

Well then the cut-offs are out of line. Most places I'm thinking have
a Sept 1st deadline and they aren't year round schools.

Maybe there should be some kind of placement test or something. But
IMHO, it is up to the parents to see to it that their kids are
appropriate ages and skills for the school, not the other way around.