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FL jury acquits Dad in *felony* spanking. Kid agrees with Dad
Teen daughter agrees that Dad was just in his punishment. States that her
family was harmed far more by the intrusive legal system and DCF, than her father's aversive. ------ Jury acquits dad in 'felony' spanking Teen believes father should not have been charged -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ Posted: August 7, 2003 5:00 p.m. Eastern © 2003 WorldNetDaily.com A South Florida jury has ruled spanking a disobedient teen-ager with a belt does not amount to felony child abuse. The decision wasn't a hard one for jurors, who deliberated for less than an hour before acquitting Naples, Fla., resident William O'Brien. "I'm happy with the outcome," O'Brien told the Fort Myers News-Press after the verdict was handed down. His wife and the 14-year-old daughter he spanked offered congratulatory hugs. O'Brien, 43, faced a maximum five-year prison sentence and a $5,000 fine over the May 27, 2002, incident, in which he says he "swatted" his then-13-year-old daughter once after she cursed her mother and then defied his order to stay in her bedroom, according to the local paper. The swat spiraled into a six-month legal battle after the girl's classmates convinced her to report the spanking to the school nurse, who then passed word of the purported crime onto case workers with the state Department of Children and Families. "The state did more harm to this child than the spanking ever did," remarked defense attorney Donald Day. Although prosecutors offered to reduce the charge to a misdemeanor, O'Brien determined his was a necessary battle to send a message. "To not fight this would have set a bad precedent for parents trying to raise children in today's times," he said. The prosecutors, who had insisted on a jury trial, remained resolute despite the ruling. "Should you be able to leave a mark on a child that lasts a week?" the News Press quotes Assistant State Attorney Steve Maresca as saying. O'Brien counters the mark went away and didn't cause permanent harm. The teen-ager, who was not named to protect her privacy, says she learned her lesson and now obeys her parents. She learned another lesson about the legal system and says her father should never have been charged. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ If you'd like to sound off on this issue, please take part in the WorldNetDaily poll. http://www.worldnetdaily.com http://www.CPSWatch.com/fl/ Send a message to DCF and Family Court. Certain prerogratives should remain within the family. Note case probably sets a precedent for case law within FL and for DCF continual unhelpful intrusions and illegalities extending their reach far beyond reasonable authority into the FAMILY. |
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FL jury acquits Dad in *felony* spanking. Kid agrees with Dad
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FL jury acquits Dad in *felony* spanking. Kid agrees with Dad
Mark ) writes:
Is it "clearly legal" or isn't it? If someone can be prosecuted on a felony charge for striking their daughter ONCE (according to the article) then the legality of it must not be all that clear in Florida. Does anyone know what Florida law actually says? Or is it just as muddled, chaotic and malleable as Florida election law? :-) Mark Laws about spanking are vague. They use phrases such as "reasonable force" without specifically defining whether striking somone on the buttocks, or other specific acts, fall within that category or not. There's a lot of room for interpretation there, and since the average person's attitude towards spanking is changing, partly in response to research associating negative effects with spanking and failing to find any long-term positive effects, the law is in effect changing too. Here's a link to a January 2002 judgement of the Ontario Court of Appeal on spanking: (Click on the link for "Canadian Foundation for Children, Jan. 15, 2002): http://www.ontariocourts.on.ca/decis.../2002index.htm Some interesting bits: "[8] McCombs J. found significant areas of agreement among these experts... [summary of agreement among them:] "'... Hitting a child under two is wrong and harmful ... "'Corporal punishment of teenagers: is not helpful and [is] potentially harmful..." "'Corporal punishment should never involve a slap or a blow to the head. "'Corporal punishment which causes injury is child abuse... "'The consensus among the experts is that not every instance of physical discipline by a parent should be criminalized. ... desirable objective ... would be best achieved through educational incentives rather than ... criminal sanctions ...'" "[19] It is clear the federal government does not advocate any form of physical punishment ... program run by Health Canada ... states: 'No matter how angry you are it's never okay to spank children. It's a bad idea and it doesn't work.'..." "[52] In summary, the s. 7 issue ... is not about whether physical punishment of children is good or bad. The government has clearly and properly determined that it is bad. Rather the issue is whether s. 43 infringes the child's security of the person in a way that violates the principles of fundamental justice. ..." The law being discussed here (section 43 of the Criminal Code) is: "43. Every schoolteacher, parent or person standing in the place of a parent is justified in using force by way of correction toward a pupil or child, as the case may be, who is under his care, if the force does not exceed what is reasonable under the circumstances." The wording of this law has not changed, as far as I know. However, its effect has changed along with society's attitudes. The Court of Appeal decision mentioned above effectively clarified that certain categories of spanking are not considered reasonable and are therefore not allowed: specifically, spanking of children under two, spanking of teenagers, blows to the head, spankings that cause injury, and certain other types of spanking are no longer allowed in Ontario. -- Cathy |
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FL jury acquits Dad in *felony* spanking. Kid agrees with Dad
Fern5827 wrote: Teen daughter agrees that Dad was just in his punishment. States that her family was harmed far more by the intrusive legal system and DCF, than her father's aversive. Sometimes I read your posts and get angry. Sometimes I read your posts and am amazed by your ignorance. Other times, I read your posts and cry. A teen daughter, hit by her father, supports her father in family court. This isn't surprising, Fern, and it certainly doesn't mean that CPS was wrong to intervene. Children attach, even to abusive parents. What do you know about attachment theory? Even children who are severely abused will choose the abusive parent, because this is what the child knows. Don't you get it, Fern? Young girls who have been raped and cut by biological fathers will choose the father over out-of-family placement. This doesn't mean that children should not be removed or that CPS should not be involved. Only ignorant people with an anti-child and anti-CPS agenda would suggest such solutions. LaVonne ------ Jury acquits dad in 'felony' spanking Teen believes father should not have been charged -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ Posted: August 7, 2003 5:00 p.m. Eastern © 2003 WorldNetDaily.com A South Florida jury has ruled spanking a disobedient teen-ager with a belt does not amount to felony child abuse. The decision wasn't a hard one for jurors, who deliberated for less than an hour before acquitting Naples, Fla., resident William O'Brien. "I'm happy with the outcome," O'Brien told the Fort Myers News-Press after the verdict was handed down. His wife and the 14-year-old daughter he spanked offered congratulatory hugs. O'Brien, 43, faced a maximum five-year prison sentence and a $5,000 fine over the May 27, 2002, incident, in which he says he "swatted" his then-13-year-old daughter once after she cursed her mother and then defied his order to stay in her bedroom, according to the local paper. The swat spiraled into a six-month legal battle after the girl's classmates convinced her to report the spanking to the school nurse, who then passed word of the purported crime onto case workers with the state Department of Children and Families. "The state did more harm to this child than the spanking ever did," remarked defense attorney Donald Day. Although prosecutors offered to reduce the charge to a misdemeanor, O'Brien determined his was a necessary battle to send a message. "To not fight this would have set a bad precedent for parents trying to raise children in today's times," he said. The prosecutors, who had insisted on a jury trial, remained resolute despite the ruling. "Should you be able to leave a mark on a child that lasts a week?" the News Press quotes Assistant State Attorney Steve Maresca as saying. O'Brien counters the mark went away and didn't cause permanent harm. The teen-ager, who was not named to protect her privacy, says she learned her lesson and now obeys her parents. She learned another lesson about the legal system and says her father should never have been charged. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ If you'd like to sound off on this issue, please take part in the WorldNetDaily poll. http://www.worldnetdaily.com http://www.CPSWatch.com/fl/ Send a message to DCF and Family Court. Certain prerogratives should remain within the family. Note case probably sets a precedent for case law within FL and for DCF continual unhelpful intrusions and illegalities extending their reach far beyond reasonable authority into the FAMILY. |
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FL jury acquits Dad in *felony* spanking. Kid agrees with Dad
Fern5827 wrote: Teen daughter agrees that Dad was just in his punishment. States that her family was harmed far more by the intrusive legal system and DCF, than her father's aversive. Sometimes I read your posts and get angry. Sometimes I read your posts and am amazed by your ignorance. Other times, I read your posts and cry. A teen daughter, hit by her father, supports her father in family court. This isn't surprising, Fern, and it certainly doesn't mean that CPS was wrong to intervene. Children attach, even to abusive parents. What do you know about attachment theory? Even children who are severely abused will choose the abusive parent, because this is what the child knows. Don't you get it, Fern? Young girls who have been raped and cut by biological fathers will choose the father over out-of-family placement. This doesn't mean that children should not be removed or that CPS should not be involved. Only ignorant people with an anti-child and anti-CPS agenda would suggest such solutions. LaVonne ------ Jury acquits dad in 'felony' spanking Teen believes father should not have been charged -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ Posted: August 7, 2003 5:00 p.m. Eastern © 2003 WorldNetDaily.com A South Florida jury has ruled spanking a disobedient teen-ager with a belt does not amount to felony child abuse. The decision wasn't a hard one for jurors, who deliberated for less than an hour before acquitting Naples, Fla., resident William O'Brien. "I'm happy with the outcome," O'Brien told the Fort Myers News-Press after the verdict was handed down. His wife and the 14-year-old daughter he spanked offered congratulatory hugs. O'Brien, 43, faced a maximum five-year prison sentence and a $5,000 fine over the May 27, 2002, incident, in which he says he "swatted" his then-13-year-old daughter once after she cursed her mother and then defied his order to stay in her bedroom, according to the local paper. The swat spiraled into a six-month legal battle after the girl's classmates convinced her to report the spanking to the school nurse, who then passed word of the purported crime onto case workers with the state Department of Children and Families. "The state did more harm to this child than the spanking ever did," remarked defense attorney Donald Day. Although prosecutors offered to reduce the charge to a misdemeanor, O'Brien determined his was a necessary battle to send a message. "To not fight this would have set a bad precedent for parents trying to raise children in today's times," he said. The prosecutors, who had insisted on a jury trial, remained resolute despite the ruling. "Should you be able to leave a mark on a child that lasts a week?" the News Press quotes Assistant State Attorney Steve Maresca as saying. O'Brien counters the mark went away and didn't cause permanent harm. The teen-ager, who was not named to protect her privacy, says she learned her lesson and now obeys her parents. She learned another lesson about the legal system and says her father should never have been charged. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ If you'd like to sound off on this issue, please take part in the WorldNetDaily poll. http://www.worldnetdaily.com http://www.CPSWatch.com/fl/ Send a message to DCF and Family Court. Certain prerogratives should remain within the family. Note case probably sets a precedent for case law within FL and for DCF continual unhelpful intrusions and illegalities extending their reach far beyond reasonable authority into the FAMILY. |
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FL jury acquits Dad in *felony* spanking. Kid agrees with Dad
Fern,
dr. laVonne of "cohort" fame using extreme examples again to lecture you on attachment theory.--Did the father deserve 5 years+ in state prison for the act of one swat? I think this case supports what the non-cohort posters have been saying for some time. This isn't the solution to the issue. Adversarial approaches and the funding mechanism for CPS must be changed--forcing these cases to court to justify their funding/existence is not the structure/model needed to support happy healthy families.--But don't tell the "cohort" as the march blindly down their well beaten path. Non-spanker by choice, Chris C. TX LaVonne Carlson wrote in message ... Fern5827 wrote: Teen daughter agrees that Dad was just in his punishment. States that her family was harmed far more by the intrusive legal system and DCF, than her father's aversive. Sometimes I read your posts and get angry. Sometimes I read your posts and am amazed by your ignorance. Other times, I read your posts and cry. A teen daughter, hit by her father, supports her father in family court. This isn't surprising, Fern, and it certainly doesn't mean that CPS was wrong to intervene. Children attach, even to abusive parents. What do you know about attachment theory? Even children who are severely abused will choose the abusive parent, because this is what the child knows. Don't you get it, Fern? Young girls who have been raped and cut by biological fathers will choose the father over out-of-family placement. This doesn't mean that children should not be removed or that CPS should not be involved. Only ignorant people with an anti-child and anti-CPS agenda would suggest such solutions. LaVonne ------ Jury acquits dad in 'felony' spanking Teen believes father should not have been charged -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ Posted: August 7, 2003 5:00 p.m. Eastern © 2003 WorldNetDaily.com A South Florida jury has ruled spanking a disobedient teen-ager with a belt does not amount to felony child abuse. The decision wasn't a hard one for jurors, who deliberated for less than an hour before acquitting Naples, Fla., resident William O'Brien. "I'm happy with the outcome," O'Brien told the Fort Myers News-Press after the verdict was handed down. His wife and the 14-year-old daughter he spanked offered congratulatory hugs. O'Brien, 43, faced a maximum five-year prison sentence and a $5,000 fine over the May 27, 2002, incident, in which he says he "swatted" his then-13-year-old daughter once after she cursed her mother and then defied his order to stay in her bedroom, according to the local paper. The swat spiraled into a six-month legal battle after the girl's classmates convinced her to report the spanking to the school nurse, who then passed word of the purported crime onto case workers with the state Department of Children and Families. "The state did more harm to this child than the spanking ever did," remarked defense attorney Donald Day. Although prosecutors offered to reduce the charge to a misdemeanor, O'Brien determined his was a necessary battle to send a message. "To not fight this would have set a bad precedent for parents trying to raise children in today's times," he said. The prosecutors, who had insisted on a jury trial, remained resolute despite the ruling. "Should you be able to leave a mark on a child that lasts a week?" the News Press quotes Assistant State Attorney Steve Maresca as saying. O'Brien counters the mark went away and didn't cause permanent harm. The teen-ager, who was not named to protect her privacy, says she learned her lesson and now obeys her parents. She learned another lesson about the legal system and says her father should never have been charged. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ If you'd like to sound off on this issue, please take part in the WorldNetDaily poll. http://www.worldnetdaily.com http://www.CPSWatch.com/fl/ Send a message to DCF and Family Court. Certain prerogratives should remain within the family. Note case probably sets a precedent for case law within FL and for DCF continual unhelpful intrusions and illegalities extending their reach far beyond reasonable authority into the FAMILY. |
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FL jury acquits Dad in *felony* spanking. Kid agrees with Dad
(Chris C.) wrote in message om...
Fern, dr. laVonne of "cohort" fame using extreme examples again to lecture you on attachment theory. I'm glad you caught The Plant at It's game...oh wait, you were talking about someone else. Scuse me. The Extreme Example crown belongs to folks in your cohort, Cee Cee. If you read what LaVonne actually said she made it clear that both severe and less severe abuse can still result in trauma bonding. Which, by the way, results in a loss of healthy attachment. Which can lead children to become, as adults, unable to form trusting relationships, and more especially to have fully formed moral and ethical personalities. You seem to fit the model. Did the father deserve 5 years+ in state prison for the act of one swat? That depends on circumstances, now doesn't it? For those that consider the parent sacrosanct, and the child mere property, no it would have been out of the question. For those that recognize that children have rights, and also know that trauma bonding of the victim to the perp is a common occurance in all kinds of violent exchanges, the outcome of this situation was a loss for the child. While he might not deserve jail, and I am not going to say based on a media source, he certainly deserved some charge and on the finding of guilty assignment to education on child development, and especially on the reaction of females to being swatted by males. I think this case supports what the non-cohort posters have been saying for some time. They aren't non-cohort. They are a cohort of their own, and a sicker bunch I've never run across. The CCC bunch, the Cognitive Challenged Cohort. This isn't the solution to the issue. Adversarial approaches The father came to a CPS office or other source and asked for help in learning how to parent better? Gosh I didn't know that. Can you give me a citation? and the funding mechanism for CPS must be changed Oh, I see. This isn't really about parenting at all. It's about your sick obsession with CPS and hoping it will go away so that if you ever do chose to molest or beat your children you'll be more likely to get away with it. Am I incorrect in my assessment? I wouldn't want to misunderstand your position. --forcing these cases to court to justify their funding/existence is not the structure/model needed to support happy healthy families. Okay, parenting expert. What WOULD be the best structure/model, assuming that one variable is unchangable, as has been proven in the past: lousy abusive, "I own this child" parents will NOT present themselves for more education. They, like you, think they know it all. --But don't tell the "cohort" as the march blindly down their well beaten path. Yes, the CCC is truely blind and busily marching along to a child beating rythm. Since CPS doesn't force these cases to court...the DA does that...you are as full of cohort as a Xmas goose apparently. Let a little out for The Plant, will yah huh. It's short of fertilizer. I can tell. Non-spanker by choice, Translation: "Pro-spanker by mental and emotional imcompetency" Chris C. TX Kane CPSWatch watcher, USA LaVonne Carlson wrote in message ... Fern5827 wrote: Teen daughter agrees that Dad was just in his punishment. States that her family was harmed far more by the intrusive legal system and DCF, than her father's aversive. Sometimes I read your posts and get angry. Sometimes I read your posts and am amazed by your ignorance. Other times, I read your posts and cry. A teen daughter, hit by her father, supports her father in family court. This isn't surprising, Fern, and it certainly doesn't mean that CPS was wrong to intervene. Children attach, even to abusive parents. What do you know about attachment theory? Even children who are severely abused will choose the abusive parent, because this is what the child knows. Don't you get it, Fern? Young girls who have been raped and cut by biological fathers will choose the father over out-of-family placement. This doesn't mean that children should not be removed or that CPS should not be involved. Only ignorant people with an anti-child and anti-CPS agenda would suggest such solutions. LaVonne ------ Jury acquits dad in 'felony' spanking Teen believes father should not have been charged -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ Posted: August 7, 2003 5:00 p.m. Eastern © 2003 WorldNetDaily.com A South Florida jury has ruled spanking a disobedient teen-ager with a belt does not amount to felony child abuse. The decision wasn't a hard one for jurors, who deliberated for less than an hour before acquitting Naples, Fla., resident William O'Brien. "I'm happy with the outcome," O'Brien told the Fort Myers News-Press after the verdict was handed down. His wife and the 14-year-old daughter he spanked offered congratulatory hugs. O'Brien, 43, faced a maximum five-year prison sentence and a $5,000 fine over the May 27, 2002, incident, in which he says he "swatted" his then-13-year-old daughter once after she cursed her mother and then defied his order to stay in her bedroom, according to the local paper. The swat spiraled into a six-month legal battle after the girl's classmates convinced her to report the spanking to the school nurse, who then passed word of the purported crime onto case workers with the state Department of Children and Families. "The state did more harm to this child than the spanking ever did," remarked defense attorney Donald Day. Although prosecutors offered to reduce the charge to a misdemeanor, O'Brien determined his was a necessary battle to send a message. "To not fight this would have set a bad precedent for parents trying to raise children in today's times," he said. The prosecutors, who had insisted on a jury trial, remained resolute despite the ruling. "Should you be able to leave a mark on a child that lasts a week?" the News Press quotes Assistant State Attorney Steve Maresca as saying. O'Brien counters the mark went away and didn't cause permanent harm. The teen-ager, who was not named to protect her privacy, says she learned her lesson and now obeys her parents. She learned another lesson about the legal system and says her father should never have been charged. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ If you'd like to sound off on this issue, please take part in the WorldNetDaily poll. http://www.worldnetdaily.com http://www.CPSWatch.com/fl/ Send a message to DCF and Family Court. Certain prerogratives should remain within the family. Note case probably sets a precedent for case law within FL and for DCF continual unhelpful intrusions and illegalities extending their reach far beyond reasonable authority into the FAMILY. |
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FL jury acquits Dad in *felony* spanking. Kid agrees with Dad
Doan wrote:
Good point! Doan ------------- Eat **** and die burning in a hole with all your kind, ****-mouth. Steve |
#10
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FL jury acquits Dad in *felony* spanking. Kid agrees with Dad
On Sun, 17 Aug 2003, R. Steve Walz wrote:
Doan wrote: Good point! Doan ------------- Eat **** and die burning in a hole with all your kind, ****-mouth. Steve Oops! More ****s coming out of steve's mouth again! ;-) Doan |
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