Teaching is leaving schools? was On the verge of losing our schoolslike Med Mal crises

Fern5827 wrote:

From a Georgia newspaper

Only 2 who called in to protest were attorneys who said that comment about
teaching leaving schools was equivalent to physicians leaving medical
practices.

Teaching is leaving schools? Where is teaching going? And how is
"teaching leaving schools"---"equivalent to physicians leaving medical
practices?

"Teaching is leaving schools" would be equivalent to "medicine is
leaving hospitals."

LaVonne



Posted on Mon, Dec. 20, 2004



Readers speak out on school discipline

By Ed Grisamore
Telegraph Columnist

My telephone and e-mail inbox have been working overtime since Wednesday. The
column about granting teachers more authority over discipline problems in the
classroom struck a chord with teachers, parents and concerned readers.

Yes, I'm in favor of corporal punishment. Guess I'm one of those "spare the
rod, spoil the child" people.

In fact, I told my wife we should permit our educators to expand the policies
of "No Child Left Behind" to include "Bad Child Gets a Spanked Behind."

Out of more than 100 letters and calls, I've only had two negative responses.
Both were from attorneys who objected to my comment that, if we're not careful,
we're going to "drive teachers from careers in education the same way frivolous
malpractice suits are pushing doctors out of the medical profession."

Here are some excerpts from a few of the letters I received.

"I'm a retired Bibb County public school teacher, and I would still be teaching
if not for the discipline problems in our schools. The general public has no
idea of the diverse backgrounds of students that enter our classrooms each day
and the constant stress that we find ourselves dealing with. I predict that
more teachers will 'snap' and the teacher shortage will continue to worsen."
(Retired Bibb County teacher)

"No one seems to want the children or the parents to be accountable for their
behavior, yet teachers must toe the line. The teachers are pushed to the limit
with misconduct, more and more paperwork, required courses, deadlines, etc.
Someone, especially locally, needs to wake up and take a good look at what is
happening, or we are going to lose many teachers due to no classroom control."
(Retired Bibb County teacher)

"I am seriously considering leaving the teaching field because of the reaction
to discipline in the schools. No longer do I feel comfortable hugging my
kindergartners. When they are disobedient (as all 5-year-olds can be), all I
can do is say 'I will call your mom.' What a cop-out! But it's all that is
available to teachers. If the (mother) is not supportive, a wild thing will
grow in my room. Something major is going to have to happen to regain classroom
discipline so we can again teach!" (Bibb County kindergarten teacher)

"I feel like I've been beat up some days when I get home. You hit the nail on
the head when you write that parents should be held more accountable for their
children's behavior. Unfortunately, when I call parents, I am accused of
'picking on their child' because they don't believe their child would
misbehave. I have been cursed at, told to shut up, threatened physically and
disrespected daily. Teachers are gradually being worn down and making career
changes." (Bibb County middle school teacher)

"Students feel empowered to do and say whatever they want while the teacher
just has to take it." (Former teacher)

"The 'board' in education is certainly missing." (Bibb County high school
teacher)

"Many Bibb County teachers have extremely inadequate administrative support in
dealing with disciplinary matters. (While teaching) I was assaulted by students
throwing objects (pennies) at me. When the students were not disciplined by the
administration, I requested a transfer to a safe school environment. The
transfer was denied, and I was forced to resign. ... Many teachers have unruly
students who are interfering with the education and safety of the other
students as well as the safety of teachers." (Former Bibb County teacher)

"We are on the verge of losing our schools! It seems a lot of adults have
abdicated their responsibilities for raising and teaching the children.
Somewhere along the line there has been a role reversal take place. The
children are raising the parents, the children are running the schools and no
one seems to care. ...Today we cater to the individual and lose sight of the
fact that most of the students want a quality education. We allow a few
individuals to dominate the classroom with bad behavior that drains a teacher's
time and energy. We need to get back to a no-nonsense, no-tolerance base in
order to serve the needs of the majority in the schools. If some of the
students cannot or will not conform, then let their parents keep them home and
home school their little darlings!" (Houston County substitute teacher)

"I don't believe in manhandling children nor abusing them. But sometimes you
have have to get their attention." (Retired teacher)

"The public needs to become increasingly aware of the growing problem of lack
of discipline in school children in the 21st century. Our hands are tied, and
the children do know it, and believe me, they do take full advantage of the
situation. Talk about stress! It is no wonder to me that teachers are breaking
under the stress. I have taught music in Bibb County for nearly 30 years, and
the changes I have witnessed are frightening to say the least." (Bibb County
teacher)

"Just wish every parent in the USA could read and appreciate what you had to
say. I grew up in a time where respect was a required ingredient in schools.
The teachers I remember with love were the ones who required respect."
(Concerned reader)

"Our school board is doing nothing but reinforcing the opinion that the student
is always right. What happened to the concept that the principals should back
up their teachers? Please continue to champion our teachers. If we are not
careful, we will have no good teachers left." (Concerned reader)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
Reach Gris at 744-4275 or . Visit his Web site at
www.grisamore.com.





--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------

© 2004 Macon Telegraph and wire service sources. All Rights Reserved.
http://www.macon.com

I wonder if LaVonne knows how to spell now and has looked up "deafening
silence" in a dictionary. ;-)

Doan

On Sat, 22 Jan 2005, Carlson LaVonne wrote:


Fern5827 wrote:

From a Georgia newspaper

Only 2 who called in to protest were attorneys who said that comment ab=
out
teaching leaving schools was equivalent to physicians leaving medical
practices.

Teaching is leaving schools? Where is teaching going? And how is
"teaching leaving schools"---"equivalent to physicians leaving medical
practices?

"Teaching is leaving schools" would be equivalent to "medicine is
leaving hospitals."

LaVonne



Posted on Mon, Dec. 20, 2004



Readers speak out on school discipline

By Ed Grisamore
Telegraph Columnist

My telephone and e-mail inbox have been working overtime since Wednesda=
y. The
column about granting teachers more authority over discipline problems =
in the
classroom struck a chord with teachers, parents and concerned readers.

Yes, I'm in favor of corporal punishment. Guess I'm one of those "spare=
the
rod, spoil the child" people.

In fact, I told my wife we should permit our educators to expand the po=
licies
of "No Child Left Behind" to include "Bad Child Gets a Spanked Behind."

Out of more than 100 letters and calls, I've only had two negative resp=
onses.
Both were from attorneys who objected to my comment that, if we're not =
careful,
we're going to "drive teachers from careers in education the same way f=
rivolous
malpractice suits are pushing doctors out of the medical profession."

Here are some excerpts from a few of the letters I received.

"I'm a retired Bibb County public school teacher, and I would still be =
teaching
if not for the discipline problems in our schools. The general public h=
as no
idea of the diverse backgrounds of students that enter our classrooms e=
ach day
and the constant stress that we find ourselves dealing with. I predict =
that
more teachers will 'snap' and the teacher shortage will continue to wor=
sen."
(Retired Bibb County teacher)

"No one seems to want the children or the parents to be accountable for=
their
behavior, yet teachers must toe the line. The teachers are pushed to th=
e limit
with misconduct, more and more paperwork, required courses, deadlines, =
etc.
Someone, especially locally, needs to wake up and take a good look at w=
hat is
happening, or we are going to lose many teachers due to no classroom co=
ntrol."
(Retired Bibb County teacher)

"I am seriously considering leaving the teaching field because of the r=
eaction
to discipline in the schools. No longer do I feel comfortable hugging m=
y
kindergartners. When they are disobedient (as all 5-year-olds can be), =
all I
can do is say 'I will call your mom.' What a cop-out! But it's all that=
is
available to teachers. If the (mother) is not supportive, a wild thing =
will
grow in my room. Something major is going to have to happen to regain c=
lassroom
discipline so we can again teach!" (Bibb County kindergarten teacher)

"I feel like I've been beat up some days when I get home. You hit the n=
ail on
the head when you write that parents should be held more accountable fo=
r their
children's behavior. Unfortunately, when I call parents, I am accused o=
f
'picking on their child' because they don't believe their child would
misbehave. I have been cursed at, told to shut up, threatened physicall=
y and
disrespected daily. Teachers are gradually being worn down and making c=
areer
changes." (Bibb County middle school teacher)

"Students feel empowered to do and say whatever they want while the tea=
cher
just has to take it." (Former teacher)

"The 'board' in education is certainly missing." (Bibb County high scho=
ol
teacher)

"Many Bibb County teachers have extremely inadequate administrative sup=
port in
dealing with disciplinary matters. (While teaching) I was assaulted by =
students
throwing objects (pennies) at me. When the students were not discipline=
d by the
administration, I requested a transfer to a safe school environment. Th=
e
transfer was denied, and I was forced to resign. ... Many teachers have=
unruly
students who are interfering with the education and safety of the other
students as well as the safety of teachers." (Former Bibb County teache=
r)

"We are on the verge of losing our schools! It seems a lot of adults ha=
ve
abdicated their responsibilities for raising and teaching the children.
Somewhere along the line there has been a role reversal take place. The
children are raising the parents, the children are running the schools =
and no
one seems to care. ...Today we cater to the individual and lose sight o=
f the
fact that most of the students want a quality education. We allow a few
individuals to dominate the classroom with bad behavior that drains a t=
eacher's
time and energy. We need to get back to a no-nonsense, no-tolerance bas=
e in
order to serve the needs of the majority in the schools. If some of the
students cannot or will not conform, then let their parents keep them h=
ome and
home school their little darlings!" (Houston County substitute teacher)

"I don't believe in manhandling children nor abusing them. But sometime=
s you
have have to get their attention." (Retired teacher)

"The public needs to become increasingly aware of the growing problem o=
f lack
of discipline in school children in the 21st century. Our hands are tie=
d, and
the children do know it, and believe me, they do take full advantage of=
the
situation. Talk about stress! It is no wonder to me that teachers are b=
reaking
under the stress. I have taught music in Bibb County for nearly 30 year=
s, and
the changes I have witnessed are frightening to say the least." (Bibb C=
ounty
teacher)

"Just wish every parent in the USA could read and appreciate what you h=
ad to
say. I grew up in a time where respect was a required ingredient in sch=
ools.
The teachers I remember with love were the ones who required respect."
(Concerned reader)

"Our school board is doing nothing but reinforcing the opinion that the=
student
is always right. What happened to the concept that the principals shoul=
d back
up their teachers? Please continue to champion our teachers. If we are =
not
careful, we will have no good teachers left." (Concerned reader)


-----------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
------
Reach Gris at 744-4275 or . Visit his Web site a=
t
www.grisamore.com.





-----------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
------

=A9 2004 Macon Telegraph and wire service sources. All Rights Reserved.
http://www.macon.com

LaVonne:
Did you even read the original news story?
It's about teachers not being able to teach
because of a lack of discipline.
The malpractice problem is real but secondary.

Greegor wrote:
LaVonne:
Did you even read the original news story?
It's about teachers not being able to teach
because of a lack of discipline.

The claim is that 90% to 98% of those children are disciplined using
spanking at home. Do you think there might just be a tad bit of a
problem related to that?

Why should a teacher HAVE to spank to maintain discipline? Why not have
childre, as Thomas Gordon taught, who can manage, discipline
themselves, as they must eventually?

The malpractice problem is real but secondary.

How is it secondary to physical discipline?

If a teacher is forced to use it he or she can very well be putting
themselves in considerable danger. Kids get guns and kill teachers that
hit them. It happened in Florida, and in one state, at Pearl, I think
it was,( others I can't recall at the moment)two boys came back and
killed a number of students, and had been paddled just a couple of days
before.

Yeah that externaly applied discipline works sooooo well.

You'll find a lot of it connected to the resorting to lethal, illegal,
violence by kids and in fact grow ups who were spanked as kids.

But hang in there. I'm counting on Mother Nature and evolutionary
forces. In time there will be so many of you folks prone to violence
and unable to control and manage yourself intelligently, we'll just
round you up, put you on a large empty continent by yourself, and let
you work it, your violence and lack of self control, out among
yourselves. The last one of you left standing will give us a final
perplexing problem: execution or life imprisonment.

Kane

Greegor wrote:
LaVonne:
Did you even read the original news story?
It's about teachers not being able to teach
because of a lack of discipline.

The claim is that 90% to 98% of those children are disciplined using
spanking at home. Do you think there might just be a tad bit of a
problem related to that?

Why should a teacher HAVE to spank to maintain discipline? Why not have
childre, as Thomas Gordon taught, who can manage, discipline
themselves, as they must eventually?

The malpractice problem is real but secondary.

How is it secondary to physical discipline?

If a teacher is forced to use it he or she can very well be putting
themselves in considerable danger. Kids get guns and kill teachers that
hit them. It happened in Florida, and in one state, at Pearl, I think
it was,( others I can't recall at the moment)two boys came back and
killed a number of students, and had been paddled just a couple of days
before.

Yeah that externaly applied discipline works sooooo well.

You'll find a lot of it connected to the resorting to lethal, illegal,
violence by kids and in fact grow ups who were spanked as kids.

But hang in there. I'm counting on Mother Nature and evolutionary
forces. In time there will be so many of you folks prone to violence
and unable to control and manage yourself intelligently, we'll just
round you up, put you on a large empty continent by yourself, and let
you work it, your violence and lack of self control, out among
yourselves. The last one of you left standing will give us a final
perplexing problem: execution or life imprisonment.

Kane

Teachers are fed up with kids who are not spanked.

Greegor wrote:
Teachers are fed up with kids who are not spanked.

Then the are very poor teachers indeed. And they have only 10 percent
at most who have not been spanked. Claims on this ng run as high as 95%
being spanked. In fact it was used as an argument for the legitimacy of
spanking...because it's so accepted and done by so many it must be
"normal" and work.

Fact is teachers are fed up because parents spank and it makes children
unresponsive to much of anything but fear and force.

Fortunately all those teachers aren't as stupid as you are.

Fact is, youth crime is down. Media attention to individual incidence
however is UP, and we have blaming children for thousands of years.
There's old greek and roman narratives of how youth is so out of
control, etc...what's the world coming to. R R R R

Most children want to learn, greegor, and they want to have their
errors of capacity, and errors of judgement, and errors where they lack
knowledge, corrected by someone that will be kind to them.

But the pattern is set early in their life with parents who hit and
hurt them. They start becoming resistant and then can only learn from
pain, and not much at that.

Let me tell you a story. 0:-

In my younger years I was a professional horseman. I owned a training
and teaching stable. What they refer to now as an Equestrian Center.

I found myself, as the years went by, more and more dealing with horses
that others had screwed up and made dangerous. To the point I was
taking bucking horses from rodeo strings (stopped bucking hard with
enough style for the competitions...they were still dangerous) and
gentling them into children's riding horses.

They'd some to me ready to kill. Bit, kick, paw, charge.

With just a bit of patience, and nerve of course, I could not only end
their fear, but teach them what they wished to know that had been
denied them. How to be functioning members of the herd. Yep, good
horseman and women, learn that the way to teach a horse is to
understand what nature requires of them as herd animals and use it.

Horses are proximity sensitive. Where you are, another member of the
herd from their point of view, in relation to their location has
everything to do with your relationship with them.

Basically you can "influence" a horse to do many things for you. I used
to teach mine to come at a dead run from the pasture to me as a trust
building exercise. They'd go into trailers, step over logs, cross
water, or simply keep the head pointed to me no matter who quickly I
moved around them.

Now at that time (things have improved a great deal since) there were
still trainers that essentially were using pain and fear...spankers if
you will. Oh they could make horses do things, but more by accident
than for any other reason. They happen to be in a critical proximity
situation for a horse to respond as it would to a herd mate and the
daring cowboy would think he just trained a horse to be afraid of the
whip.

This latter method made for very dangerous horses. They became highly
reactive to fear, not trust. They were eager to escape pain, not come
to safety. As long as you were strong enough to give them more pain
with the tools of the horsebusiness, like bits and whips, you could
control them, but never get the best from them.

And every now and then I got to see one of these cowboys get smashed by
one of their horses. While I enjoyed horses so eager to please and
learn I hardly had to do anything at all.

You can see the difference if you know what you are seeing.

For instance, my hobby at that time, aside from my professional work,
was the western reining horse. My competators could make their horses
slide and spin in the complecated patterns required for competition,
but every one I was in, when my turn came and I have completed the
course work, the crowd, who knew me, would cheer and holler for me to
do my little finish.

I'd reach up, peel the bridle off the horse, and with him or her
bareheaded, I would do the entire routine at a faster speed then
required, and a couple of extra flourishes at the end, including my
horse doing a little bow.

No one could work a horse, at that time, without a bridle but me in all
the competitions I went to. Why? Because they were spankers, and I was
the horses coach teaching him what he wanted to learn. And I knew how
to influence him to want to.

I don't find human children any more difficult than a horse. In fact in
some ways easier, since we are of the same "herd."

So years later, many, when I began working with mentally ill teenagers,
and some latency age kids I applied the same principles.

1. Recognize the commonalities of human behavior as they relate to
their group (herd). I, after all, are one of their herd.

2. Instead of artificially imposing my desires on them for the behavior
I wanted, I accepted their lead, and taught them what they wanted to
know, as human beings. It's mostly about how to get their needs met
consistently with the least painful feedback.

A very simple principle. If you know it. Complicated if you have a head
full of BS about humans such as you seem to be spouting from the first
day I read you here.

And those mentally ill children, the majority from reactivity to pain
parenting, were a cinch when I applied what you see above.

Those that assumed the children were resistant (as in peeing
themselves) always screwed it up, even as they thought they had
terrified the child into compliance. Because sooner or later, one way
or another, for better or for worse, 0:- the punisher was made to
pay.

Sound familiar?

Think it takes rocket science? Hell, I caught on about the same
principles applying from my work with, play actually, with horses to
work with humans by watching mothers who were unaware of observations,
or past noticing. 600 hours of video of mother with newborn to about 3
or 4 months as I recall, and I couldn't miss the little subtleties that
humans us, just like horses, to gain trust, cooperation, and
compliance.

I also got to watch about 2000 hours or sick children, some of it
interacting with their punishing parent, and learned to spot the
inhuman behaviors..those actions counter to what humans basically
want...need meeting with the least pain and fear...for solid learning
effectiveness.

If you weren't such a stupid twit, with punishing as your major, and
nearly only (I haven't seen otherwise yet) mindset you'd have never had
a problem with the girl. And you'd have done the right thing.

So, about teachers. Ones like myself that aren't sick with the
stupidity of some cultures, and like you are, have very little trouble
with kids, even the ones so horribly screwed up by pain parenting
parents. They always get through.

You just don't hear about them. Your kind don't know what they are
seeing so they dismiss it as an anomoly.

I used to teach teachers. The young newbies were fun, because they
COULD see what I was training them to see and to do. And they were
excited to learn that they could get MORE out of a child by humane
methods than fear.

That's why the paddling states still have the lowest academic scores.

You have enough life ahead of you to learn, greegor. Why not stop your
tom foolery in this ng and in your life, and start sorting it out with
a strict code of ethics, and some instruction in moral principles.
There's actually some pretty good college classes on such subjects.
Look in the philosophy department.

Have a nice sleep.

(Oh, and yes, I am writing about these things to publish them.) A
character named "Riko," will figure prominantly. Like it?

http://www.behindthename.com/php/view.php?name=reko

Watch for the book. If I live long enough. It's gonna be a big one.

Kane

Reko is a version of Gregory in the Finnish language?
Why THAT language??
I have no ancestral connection to Finland.

Greegor wrote:
Reko is a version of Gregory in the Finnish language?

Mmmhhhmmmm...

Why THAT language??

Why not?

I have no ancestral connection to Finland.

Being nothing for many years now, greegor, you can consider yourself
finished. 0:-

Kane