I hate homework!

"Stephanie" wrote in message
...
Huh. I would say that it is unusual to have a classroom full of
kindergarteners and not have one or two, likely boys, who have trouble
with writing.


There were a couple of boys at the start of kindergarten who couldn't form
proper letters. There might have been one child who couldn't write when
journaling started. Certainly the vast majority of the class could write,
as I was there as a parent volunteer and they could all form letters by the
time journaling started.

All but two of the boys were red shirted and some of the girls had been red
shirted, so it was an older kindergarten class than would normally be if
everyone just enrolled their kid when it was time. That's the problem with
red shirting. It sets up unreasonable expectations for what a child of
kindergarten age should be able to do.

"Chookie" wrote in message
news:ehrebeniuk-298ACB.23213708042008@news...
In article 9nBJj.37$PJ3.8@trndny02, Jeff
wrote:

In 6 hours of school, the kids are getting opportunities to practice,
and
can
ask the teacher for help *as* they need it and *if* they need it.

Actually, if they think they need it. And, if a teacher has 20 students,
providing individual help to students is rather difficult.

Oh? Depends how competent the teacher is, I suppose.

AND how demanding the students are. 20 fairly autonomous students is quite
managable. However, add a few students who have a much higher need for
attention, and it gets hard quickly. At least in the USA, due to the way
some of our laws have been interpreted by courts, it is very rare to have an
elementary school class that does not have 2-3 students with academic needs,
and many of these children need much more support (some close to 1-1
attention) just to get through the day. It takes very exceptional needs now
before support is provided in the classroom, and it has to be quite extreme
indeed before a child is placed in an alternative setting in most schools.

Add students still learning English to the mix, and students who are "high
need", but not technically disabled, and it's easy for the independent
practice time provided to truly be "independent"-and often with a high level
of distraction at that. In many cases, kids are likely to get more support
and a quieter work environment at home.

When I was in high school, I avoided study halls like the plague because I
couldn't study, couldn't read, couldn't do much of anything-they were held
in the cafeteria and were just plain LOUD. Not because students were really
being disruptive, but because there was so much noise from the kitchens and
due to the cinder block walls, tile floors, and high ceilings that sounds
just echoed and were magnified. For many elementary students now, I truly
think in-class work time is similar to that study hall. It's a nice thought
that the kids can get their work done at school, where the teacher can help,
but actually, unless your school does levelled classes, it's unlikely that a
regular, average kid with reasonably supportive parents wouldn't be better
off going home a couple of hours early and doing the work at home-which
isn't allowed under USA attendance laws.

In article , Beth Kevles
says...


Here's a thought ... ask if the teacher will help your son through his
homework one time. Explain that it's a huge, frustrating struggle, and
enlist her ACTIVE help. Many teachers will stay after school for a bit
to help students, so maybe you can work it out for just the one time?
The result, if you're lucky, will be that either she'll modify the
assignment, or she'll suggest different approaches to doing it that can
help your on succeed.

Or you could videotape a homework session so she can make suggestions
about how to help him succeed in the real world where you live.

Might be too complicated, but maybe worth a try?

It might work. Or it might backfire. It's only once or twice, vs. the daily
dredge Chookie has. The teacher has the advantage of novelty (as far as
homework is concerned), and also a more speacific authority. Plus she's getting
him at a different time of the day. She might say "I don't see what the problem
is"!

Banty

On Apr 4, 7:43*am, "toypup" wrote:

It does not take him very long to finish -- less than 10 minutes a day and the
journal might take half an hour.

It's not the 10 minutes work I objected to, it was the half-hour
screaming tantrum before the work started. We always got it done in
the end but it left my son utterly drained. That was *so* not worth
it.

I wanted my son to do the same as the other kids and I know he's by no
means the only kid of that age to have trouble settling down to do
homework, so I didn't play the disability card, but the homework
didn't bring any educational benefits that were worth so much hassle.
Or that would have been worth a different kid spending three hours
dawdling around over homework when he could have been properly
relaxing, come to that. My son worked hard in school, he was burnt out
by the end of the school day and ideally he should have been left to
watch telly or shuffle Pokemon cards in peace.

If they'd only left it a few more years he'd have had the energy and
the maturity not to do the tantrumming - he doesn't do it now aged 9.
I see no point starting homework so long before most kids are ready -
and from talking to other parents mostly they are *not* ready at age 6
even though they show their unreadiness in so many different ways, be
it dawdling, tantrumming, forgetfulness, disorganisation etc. That
just sets the stage for bad habits of having to rely on parents to
organise and motivate them.

Anyway, at least we don't have a problem getting the boring routine
maths'n'spelling stuff done any more. But the creative project-y
stuff, boy does *that* cause domestic disruption. Ah well, homework
seems to exist just so that everyone gets to suffer over
*something* :-)

For the average second grader, I wouldn't expect 20 sentences a week to take
very long at all.

My son does five sentences a week, and that's plenty. The teacher said
they had to write "interesting" sentences so he writes very long
complicated sentences which he strings into a blood-and-thunder
adventure serial. He reads them to me, and I never interfere except
that occasionally I point out that he's forgotten to put in any of the
spelling words :-)

Cailleach

"Chookie" wrote in message

news:ehrebeniuk-D22948.21014803042008@news...





I have never found making up sentences difficult, but I never had homework
at
his age (he is 7yo and in Year 2, third year of school). I have no
particular
enthusiasm for HW so young but feel that just dropping it would reward him
for
being lazy. His teacher might be amenable to some changes to his HW, but I
would prefer to give him some sort of framework for developing sentences..
He
is not finding sentence construction boring, just difficult; and I feel he
is
both easily distracted from it and over-thinking the sentences. I have
PLENTY
of things I would rather (or need to) be doing than standing over L for
three
hours, but plainly my cruise-past-frequently style is not working and the
situation is getting worse rather than better. OTOH I can't work out what
else I should do as I don't believe in doing the homework for him.
Plainly
the natural consequence of not having any playtime is an insufficient
deterrent.

Last year, when DS was in kindergarten, he had great difficulty completing
his homework. *He'd spend hours just sitting there. *One time, he had his
journal draft all written out and it took three hours just to copy it to a
final draft (just eight sentences).

DS's (now 6 yo) doing very well this year, even going straight to the office
to do it all without being told. *I'm not sure if it's anything that I did
or just maturity, but I can tell you some of my strategies.

Have you tried planning something fun after homework if it gets completed in
a timely manner? *Does that get him to concentrate better? *I find that DS
can really get moving if he's motivated by an activity.

If I felt DS did not understand the work, I'd have him practice some more
with me until it became easier for him. *I know that seems wrong making him
do more of what he didn't want to do in the first place, but it did have its
intended effect. *If DS did not know the material, the reviews with me
helped him with his schoolwork and homework. *If he did know the material
and just was wasting time, he'd have motivation to pick up the pace a
little.

I don't believe in too much homework for kids, but unlike others, I do not
think your child's load is too much. *DS is in first grade now and is
writing his spelling words out three times each on Mondays, he has at least
one math page MTWTn, he has reading comprehension on Tuesdays, a book report
(two sentences and a picture) on Wednesdays and a journal (about 1 1/2 pages
large print) with full color picture on Thursdays, and a vocabulary test and
memory challenge *to study for once a week. *It does not take him very long
to finish -- less than 10 minutes a day and the journal might take half an
hour.

For the average second grader, I wouldn't expect 20 sentences a week to take
very long at all. *Though your child can form complicated sentences
verbally, writing is a whole different beast, as many can attest. *See if
the teacher has an strategies for teaching writing. *Perhaps start with a
rigid structure and then then expand from there? *Is he allowed, for
instance to write, "A dog is an animal. *A bird is an animal. *A lizard is
an animal." *When that week's words are "dog," "bird," and "lizard"? *Later,
you can work on expanding in complexity. *Maybe for now, just get him to
write. *Once the words start flowing, it might get rid of that writer's
block.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

In article , Donna Metler says...



"Chookie" wrote in message
news:ehrebeniuk-298ACB.23213708042008@news...
In article 9nBJj.37$PJ3.8@trndny02, Jeff
wrote:

In 6 hours of school, the kids are getting opportunities to practice,
and
can
ask the teacher for help *as* they need it and *if* they need it.

Actually, if they think they need it. And, if a teacher has 20 students,
providing individual help to students is rather difficult.

Oh? Depends how competent the teacher is, I suppose.

AND how demanding the students are. 20 fairly autonomous students is quite
managable. However, add a few students who have a much higher need for
attention, and it gets hard quickly. At least in the USA, due to the way
some of our laws have been interpreted by courts, it is very rare to have an
elementary school class that does not have 2-3 students with academic needs,
and many of these children need much more support (some close to 1-1
attention) just to get through the day. It takes very exceptional needs now
before support is provided in the classroom, and it has to be quite extreme
indeed before a child is placed in an alternative setting in most schools.

Add students still learning English to the mix, and students who are "high
need", but not technically disabled, and it's easy for the independent
practice time provided to truly be "independent"-and often with a high level
of distraction at that. In many cases, kids are likely to get more support
and a quieter work environment at home.

When I was in high school, I avoided study halls like the plague because I
couldn't study, couldn't read, couldn't do much of anything-they were held
in the cafeteria and were just plain LOUD. Not because students were really
being disruptive, but because there was so much noise from the kitchens and
due to the cinder block walls, tile floors, and high ceilings that sounds
just echoed and were magnified. For many elementary students now, I truly
think in-class work time is similar to that study hall. It's a nice thought
that the kids can get their work done at school, where the teacher can help,
but actually, unless your school does levelled classes, it's unlikely that a
regular, average kid with reasonably supportive parents wouldn't be better
off going home a couple of hours early and doing the work at home-which
isn't allowed under USA attendance laws.


So - you're saying the teachers don't have time to teach kids, so they're
looking to parents to?

If we're sharing their job (and paying them to boot), why can't I arrange things
like - getting the assignments on Fridays so that I can manage our family time
and the energy and attention level of my schoolchild? Which so hugely mitigated
our situation the one time I was able to do it, that it's all I'm individually
asking for a minimum. But I got no break there.

There is *always* a cost to offloading workload, at the least in facilitating
those offloaded to.

Let alone many other issues with the situation. But, frankly, I'm skeptical
that this is the *main* reason or even a primary reason for the increased
homework as the usual response would be to lower total workload. For example, I
don't recall having teachers hanging above me while I was writing out 20
sentences in second grade, nor did I write weekly expository one page essays in
third grade.

Banty

"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article , Donna Metler
says...



"Chookie" wrote in message
news:ehrebeniuk-298ACB.23213708042008@news...
In article 9nBJj.37$PJ3.8@trndny02, Jeff
wrote:

In 6 hours of school, the kids are getting opportunities to practice,
and
can
ask the teacher for help *as* they need it and *if* they need it.

Actually, if they think they need it. And, if a teacher has 20
students,
providing individual help to students is rather difficult.

Oh? Depends how competent the teacher is, I suppose.

AND how demanding the students are. 20 fairly autonomous students is quite
managable. However, add a few students who have a much higher need for
attention, and it gets hard quickly. At least in the USA, due to the way
some of our laws have been interpreted by courts, it is very rare to have
an
elementary school class that does not have 2-3 students with academic
needs,
and many of these children need much more support (some close to 1-1
attention) just to get through the day. It takes very exceptional needs
now
before support is provided in the classroom, and it has to be quite
extreme
indeed before a child is placed in an alternative setting in most schools.

Add students still learning English to the mix, and students who are "high
need", but not technically disabled, and it's easy for the independent
practice time provided to truly be "independent"-and often with a high
level
of distraction at that. In many cases, kids are likely to get more support
and a quieter work environment at home.

When I was in high school, I avoided study halls like the plague because I
couldn't study, couldn't read, couldn't do much of anything-they were held
in the cafeteria and were just plain LOUD. Not because students were
really
being disruptive, but because there was so much noise from the kitchens
and
due to the cinder block walls, tile floors, and high ceilings that sounds
just echoed and were magnified. For many elementary students now, I truly
think in-class work time is similar to that study hall. It's a nice
thought
that the kids can get their work done at school, where the teacher can
help,
but actually, unless your school does levelled classes, it's unlikely that
a
regular, average kid with reasonably supportive parents wouldn't be better
off going home a couple of hours early and doing the work at home-which
isn't allowed under USA attendance laws.


So - you're saying the teachers don't have time to teach kids, so they're
looking to parents to?

If we're sharing their job (and paying them to boot), why can't I arrange
things
like - getting the assignments on Fridays so that I can manage our family
time
and the energy and attention level of my schoolchild? Which so hugely
mitigated
our situation the one time I was able to do it, that it's all I'm
individually
asking for a minimum. But I got no break there.

There is *always* a cost to offloading workload, at the least in
facilitating
those offloaded to.

Let alone many other issues with the situation. But, frankly, I'm
skeptical
that this is the *main* reason or even a primary reason for the increased
homework as the usual response would be to lower total workload. For
example, I
don't recall having teachers hanging above me while I was writing out 20
sentences in second grade, nor did I write weekly expository one page
essays in
third grade.

I'm not saying it's a good thing-not unless you DO shorten the school day!
But I am saying that kids doing work at school isn't nearly as efficient as
Jeff would like to believe, and the illusion of the teacher being able to
help often is not the case for the average child, because the teacher is so
occupied with the children who need her more. It's kind of like having a 6
yr old and a toilet training 2 yr old who is into everything. The 6 yr old
simply is NOT getting 50% of the time you can spend with the child. And if
you've got a child who can't focus in a chaotic situation, even if the
school doesn't assign homework for the sake of homework, and only sends home
unfinished assignments, the load can get ridiculous fast, as the child has
almost 6 hours of work they were unable to complete in school to finish. Add
the 10 minutes per grade per night (and realize that most teachers seem very
BAD at time estimates, forgetting that it takes a 6 yr old a LOT longer to
write than an adult!) and you quickly have hours of homework every
night-with most of it stuff that can't easily be assigned a week at a time
because it's coming from that day's lessons. Frankly, I'd be very suspicious
of a class which meets daily that COULD assign homework a week at a time,
simply because if you have it ready that far in advance, you're not
adjusting to what the students need.

My feeling is that most schools are NOT an efficient way of learning for
most individuals-and that the excessive homework is a combination of that
lack of efficiency coupled with an increased workload and expectations. It's
unlikely that 2nd graders 20 years ago would have been writing 20 sentences
for one assignment even in class, because most 2nd graders had only learned
to read and write at all in 1st grade, and were still learning in 2nd. Now
they're expected to pretty much have those skills mastered by that point.

"Donna Metler" wrote in message
AND how demanding the students are. 20 fairly autonomous students is quite
managable. However, add a few students who have a much higher need for
attention, and it gets hard quickly. At least in the USA, due to the way
some of our laws have been interpreted by courts, it is very rare to have
an elementary school class that does not have 2-3 students with academic
needs, and many of these children need much more support (some close to
1-1 attention) just to get through the day. It takes very exceptional
needs now before support is provided in the classroom, and it has to be
quite extreme indeed before a child is placed in an alternative setting in
most schools.

And that's even too broad a generalization for the U.S. Our school has a
great set-up for kids with needs. They do help them throughout the day. They
pull them out during reading time or other times that they won't miss more
important things to give them 1:1 help. I haven't even had to have an IEP
for DD3 to receive 1:1 help in her elementary years. At the middle and high
school levels, DD1 has had a special ed teacher that she can go to at any
point during the day to get help; however, she has an IEP. She also has 2
hours a day in a dedicated class to receive help. I have to say our school
district does a great job with at risk kids.
--
Sue (mom to three girls)

In article , Donna Metler says...


"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article , Donna Metler
says...



"Chookie" wrote in message
news:ehrebeniuk-298ACB.23213708042008@news...
In article 9nBJj.37$PJ3.8@trndny02, Jeff
wrote:

In 6 hours of school, the kids are getting opportunities to practice,
and
can
ask the teacher for help *as* they need it and *if* they need it.

Actually, if they think they need it. And, if a teacher has 20
students,
providing individual help to students is rather difficult.

Oh? Depends how competent the teacher is, I suppose.

AND how demanding the students are. 20 fairly autonomous students is quite
managable. However, add a few students who have a much higher need for
attention, and it gets hard quickly. At least in the USA, due to the way
some of our laws have been interpreted by courts, it is very rare to have
an
elementary school class that does not have 2-3 students with academic
needs,
and many of these children need much more support (some close to 1-1
attention) just to get through the day. It takes very exceptional needs
now
before support is provided in the classroom, and it has to be quite
extreme
indeed before a child is placed in an alternative setting in most schools.

Add students still learning English to the mix, and students who are "high
need", but not technically disabled, and it's easy for the independent
practice time provided to truly be "independent"-and often with a high
level
of distraction at that. In many cases, kids are likely to get more support
and a quieter work environment at home.

When I was in high school, I avoided study halls like the plague because I
couldn't study, couldn't read, couldn't do much of anything-they were held
in the cafeteria and were just plain LOUD. Not because students were
really
being disruptive, but because there was so much noise from the kitchens
and
due to the cinder block walls, tile floors, and high ceilings that sounds
just echoed and were magnified. For many elementary students now, I truly
think in-class work time is similar to that study hall. It's a nice
thought
that the kids can get their work done at school, where the teacher can
help,
but actually, unless your school does levelled classes, it's unlikely that
a
regular, average kid with reasonably supportive parents wouldn't be better
off going home a couple of hours early and doing the work at home-which
isn't allowed under USA attendance laws.


So - you're saying the teachers don't have time to teach kids, so they're
looking to parents to?

If we're sharing their job (and paying them to boot), why can't I arrange
things
like - getting the assignments on Fridays so that I can manage our family
time
and the energy and attention level of my schoolchild? Which so hugely
mitigated
our situation the one time I was able to do it, that it's all I'm
individually
asking for a minimum. But I got no break there.

There is *always* a cost to offloading workload, at the least in
facilitating
those offloaded to.

Let alone many other issues with the situation. But, frankly, I'm
skeptical
that this is the *main* reason or even a primary reason for the increased
homework as the usual response would be to lower total workload. For
example, I
don't recall having teachers hanging above me while I was writing out 20
sentences in second grade, nor did I write weekly expository one page
essays in
third grade.

I'm not saying it's a good thing-not unless you DO shorten the school day!
But I am saying that kids doing work at school isn't nearly as efficient as
Jeff would like to believe, and the illusion of the teacher being able to
help often is not the case for the average child, because the teacher is so
occupied with the children who need her more. It's kind of like having a 6
yr old and a toilet training 2 yr old who is into everything. The 6 yr old
simply is NOT getting 50% of the time you can spend with the child. And if
you've got a child who can't focus in a chaotic situation, even if the
school doesn't assign homework for the sake of homework, and only sends home
unfinished assignments, the load can get ridiculous fast, as the child has
almost 6 hours of work they were unable to complete in school to finish. Add
the 10 minutes per grade per night (and realize that most teachers seem very
BAD at time estimates, forgetting that it takes a 6 yr old a LOT longer to
write than an adult!) and you quickly have hours of homework every
night-with most of it stuff that can't easily be assigned a week at a time
because it's coming from that day's lessons.

So, you're saying a *majority* of the homework is left-over classwork?? And
furhtermore (below) because of this you don't think it's possible to assign the
homework ahead of time??

Look - if it is consistently too much for class time, it's time to assign *less*
work.

Frankly, I'd be very suspicious
of a class which meets daily that COULD assign homework a week at a time,
simply because if you have it ready that far in advance, you're not
adjusting to what the students need.

Now wait a minute. You're playing both ends of the stick here, at your end of
the stick everytime being a reason to give all the latitude and the veracity to
the teacher.

1. Homeworks are necessary because there is not enough time for the teacher to
give individual attention to a regular student during class time.

2. Homeworks can't be assigned ahead of time because the teacher is adjusting
the homeworks individually for the particular students based on what he or she
sees during class time.

Oh phooey.

IS it, or is it NOT - true - that the teacher is so overwhelmed she can't give
individual attention to the students to help them with their learning.
Homeworks are *not* being adjusted individuall, and if there is adjustment to be
made, it is *much* easeir to give an individual student a few minutes of class
time. Than to produce and communicate individual assignments.



My feeling is that most schools are NOT an efficient way of learning for
most individuals-and that the excessive homework is a combination of that
lack of efficiency coupled with an increased workload and expectations. It's
unlikely that 2nd graders 20 years ago would have been writing 20 sentences
for one assignment even in class, because most 2nd graders had only learned
to read and write at all in 1st grade, and were still learning in 2nd. Now
they're expected to pretty much have those skills mastered by that point.

I think that's the main problem. And the rationalizations about homework times
(which are true only for adults and very focussed students, whose existence
seems to stand in as existence proof for teachers to say *all* students can get
it done in 10 minutes/grade). And the pervasive pressure to redshirt kids,
especially boys, are *consistent* with this.

The stuff about mainstreamed students (thought there would be persons present or
assitants assigned - even a class of non-IEP students have teacher assistants
present) has led you to rather inconsistent complaints. Which I take as a sign
of, although it may be a stressor, isn't the fundamental problem.

In my district, the homeworks are mandated, they're quite consistent from class
to class and school to school (and state to state, and since Chookie started
this thread, continent to continent), and the rest of this stuff about how many
minnites it's 'sposed to take and how the bedroom desk lamp is set up, yadda
yadda, is just desperate bones thrown to parents from educators who don't want
to buck the trends.

At least that's been the way it's been looking to me.

Banty

Banty

On 8 Apr 2008 09:53:54 -0700, Banty wrote:

The stuff about mainstreamed students (thought there would be persons present or
assitants assigned - even a class of non-IEP students have teacher assistants
present) has led you to rather inconsistent complaints. Which I take as a sign
of, although it may be a stressor, isn't the fundamental problem.

They do?

Many schools have very few aides. It is almost impossible to get an
aide for individual students here. Often classroom aides are shared
between 2 to 4 classrooms here.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

Cailleach wrote:
[snip]
If they'd only left it a few more years he'd have had the energy and
the maturity not to do the tantrumming - he doesn't do it now aged 9.
I see no point starting homework so long before most kids are ready -
and from talking to other parents mostly they are *not* ready at age 6
even though they show their unreadiness in so many different ways, be
it dawdling, tantrumming, forgetfulness, disorganisation etc. That
just sets the stage for bad habits of having to rely on parents to
organise and motivate them.
[snip]

I had a look at various studies at the weekend.

One of them found
"More parental support for autonomy was associated with higher
standardized test scores, higher class grades, and more homework
completed. More positive parent involvement was associated with lower
test scores and lower class grades, especially for elementary school
students."

"Support for autonomy" is effectively providing time/space for the child
to get on with homework on their own. "Parent involvement" is
effectively helping the children with the work.

(Title: Homework in the Home: How Student, Family, and Parenting-Style
Differences Relate to the Homework Process
Source: Contemporary Educational Psychology [0361-476X] Cooper
yr:2000 vol:25 iss:4 pg:464 -487)

So basically, starting homework at age where parental support is needed
is not installing the kind of study habits that will lead to improved
grades.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three