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| U.N. rules Canada should ban spanking



 
 
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  #141  
Old November 16th 03, 01:01 PM
Greg Hanson
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Default U.N. rules Canada should ban spanking

Dennis H:
I agree with you but I would go much farther.

Perhaps having caseworkers make up huge LIES about
me in order to try to tear up our family has given
me the perspective you'd expect from someone
with their gonads in a vice.

While I concede that there was a problem that
they were intended to cure, I absolutely believe
that the ""cure"" is worse than the disease.

CPS has reached the point of abusing more
than the real child abusers they target.
Keep in mind that MOST child removals would
never qualify for criminal charges.

Sheer numbers of unnecessary removals,
Deaths due to abuse (2x avg in FC)
Squalid conditions (Yes, amazing but FC trouble)
Sexual Abuse ( 8x avg in FC)

Parental alienation efforts

Lies, Crooked procedures, vindictive behavior,
arrogance, hypocrisy, etc.

Well intentioned originally perhaps, the old expression
"God save me from people who MEAN well" no longer applies.
They can't mean well when they carry the level of ill will
that my family has seen. The deliberateness is no mistake.

How could RICO apply to a Garbage Truck contract deal
but not Child Protective Services contractor FRAUD?

The cure is worse than the disease.
  #142  
Old November 16th 03, 08:41 PM
Kane
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Default | U.N. rules Canada should ban spanking

On 16 Nov 2003 03:03:57 -0800, (Greg Hanson)
wrote:

Dennis H,
I can't resist mentioning some recent developments in other threads.

In one thread Chris has repeatedly posted a link to a sound file
where a mother is spanking her daughter for bad grades. When
asked for background information on that, he just reposts the
same old thing. Heck I've talked to cult members more willing
to answer questions than that.


You are either misinformed or a liar, Whore. He has posted how he came
to have the file. He makes a very clear disclaimer on the source. He
also does the same, gives a disclaimer, on what exactly is taking
place on the sound file. You are, as usual, full of ****, Whore.

Fern has posted results of a study by STRAUSS with Field and
supervised by somebody named Fox. The study reveals that even
the non-spankers use "psychological aggression" as do 100% of all
parents.


Yes, and I've posted many times that that alone nullifies the attempts
of others to dispute the studies. The researcher does NOT account
adequately for this substitution of one kind of abusive punishment for
another.

I DO so discriminate and debate those that continue to use yet other
kinds of punishment.

Such is not needed to raise children successfully. I do not have to
deliberately humiliate or cause a child pain in ANY way.

What's funny is that they seem to take the position
that it's all harmful.


Yes. Some of us do that. I do. Humiliation..your speciality..is
harmful. If you keep it low enough in intensity and or frequency
sometimes you'll never know how it harmed, but the victim
will...though they may have a lot of trouble identifying the source,
since the punishers pretty universally sell the victim on being the
cause of the abusive punishment.

Cowards, the lot of you.

I'm counting on the brightness and the fortuitous escape of the little
girl you humiliated to allow her to access her memories accurately and
identify her abuser later in life and come hunting you.

Apparently they are taking the idea of
changing the world a bit far.


Nope. Many children have been raised by similar completely
non-punitive methods. I was visiting in my own home last evening with
two. Now young women in their early twenties, and very successful in
their lives. And very pleasant to be with. They are my step-daughters.
Their mother may have been even more dedicated to non-punitive methods
than I. But they are much like the two children I raised.

No crime, deeply committed to learning (all college attendees), moral
in their dealings with others, and some of the best company you could
imagine.

If they get verbal and
psychological aggression outlawed,


It's a thought. But I've never found laws to be not much use in that
area. By the way, it's already illegal. Just how stupid and ignorant
are you anyway?

then even non-spankers can
have their kids removed to state care for this ""abuse"".


Not likely to happen, as non-spankers tend very much to be
non-punishers as well, as in not using psychological punishments. The
current research that claims that 100% of children are psychologically
abused by their parents is nonsense. It isn't science.

100% of human beings experience pain in their lives, both physical and
emotional, and they will instinctively attach the source to those
nearest to them. Survey's would be impossible to accurately take using
self reporting.

Even though it is found in 100% of all cases, they seem
dead set on proving that it is harmful.


I have seen the harm both physical and emotional abuse results in. And
there are some laws NOW against both. Psychological abuse is pretty
plainly defined in statute and child protection policy in a number of
states.

The outcome is measured by the clearly testable developmental markers
children are missing as they grow. And by the substitute survival
behaviors the child learns and exhibits (think, criminal behavior if
they reach adulthood) instead of what they should be learning, were
they not abused and neglected.

Could you imagine a kid raised in a situation where nothing
is ever said to them that they don't want to hear?


There is not such thing. And there is no such belief in, or movement
that bases its premise on such. We know that children hear things all
the time that they find unpleasant. We give them power to change
themselves and the circumstances they find themselves in in positive
ways, instead of destructive ways.

Bill Mumy played a character like that in an old
Twilight Zone episode where the kid had godlike mental
power to make, destroy, eliminate or fabricate anything
his mind desired.


Since no one has that power then there is no sense to your story.

The absolute power of course made
him a little demon.


Do you really think that children raised without pain and humiliation
have anything like absolute power and lack of conscience that would
allow them to be destructive to others?

The contrary is true. In fact I found them inordinately moral and
conscience bound...almost to the point of less assertive self caring
and self interest focused. With a few I had to teach them the moral
reasons for being selfish to a degree.

You are full of ****, old boy.

Absent the telekinetic ability,
how much imagination does it take to see what kind
of a brat could result if a child is never told what
they don't want to hear? Never taught "No!" ?


What makes you think a child can't be taught "NO!" without pain and
humiliation?

You see, Greegor the Whore, YOU can't conceive of it because YOU can't
conceive of it, meaning that you were brought up to believe in pain
and humiliation as a valid and useful parenting, and control, tool.

Some folks either weren't brought up that way or had the good fortune,
or moral rectitude and determination, to learn otherwise.

When I tell you I have watched hundreds of children thrive on
non-punitive parenting methods you think I am lying. The truth is, I
am not. I have literally watched not only normal children trive, but I
have personally helped badly abused, mentally ill, children heal and
thrive by removing punitive methods from their lives and replacing
those with non-punitive methods.

And it's not a passive let-the-kid-do-anything method, but in fact
highly active and purposeful. It is so powerful I've seen parents that
learned how to do it cry over the results, from shock and joy that
they never had to do to their child again what had been done to them
as children by their parents.

Since there is a division between people who choose
not to spank but don't wish to IMPOSE that on other
parents,


That is a cop-out. Once a person learns to use truly non-punitive (not
just non-cp) methods it strikes them how badly the world and their own
society is being served by allowing anyone to hurt a child again
deliberately.

and since some anti-spankers might
have problems with the notion that even THEY might
someday be considered Child Abusers if STRAUSS has
his way, I am waiting to see what people from the
non-spanking and anti-spanking camps say about the
possibility of new "social crimes" they might be
guilty of. (Unless they are outside of the 100%)


Smile your silly stupid smile, Whore. It's not even a problem.

I've watched, with some amusement myself, the Swedish experience, and
I knew...because I was watching back in the mid to late 70's, what was
going to happen.

I knew that most families that didn't get (and the Swedes did offer)
parent training in non-punitive methods would resort to either CP
behind closed doors, or more elaborate and manipulative psychological
abuse.

You see, Whore, I know about people such as you and the desparate
situation you are caught in. Your ignorance, and what you have been
taught, blocks you off from the aha experience that somes with
actually trying non-punitive methods.

That is what happend in Sweden. Yet something else happened there as
well. What the state offered was subsidized classes. And those parents
that took those classes (not very much like the silly classes being
taught today that are still punishment based) gave the parents that
new awareness.

Now interestingly, the awareness was something a small minority of
folks already had a handle on. There have been many people
historically that didn't use punitive parenting. Usually they had the
leisure and wealth to explore more, and did.

I haven't had much interaction with LaVonne until
the last few months, but it seems like she keeps
using this tactic of going silent on issues when she
gets proven wrong,


I think she goes silent either out of complete astonishment at the
assinine responses and claims she reads here, or out of pity. I think
she knows much of what I know on this subject, though I think I have
seen her slip in a little punishment based stuff as advice from time
to time.

Most normal families probably won't have the children harmed by such
low level negatives, so I tolerate it. But what I've seen is that the
purer the non-punitive methods are the more powerfully they work.

In learning it myself more than once with the children I worked with I
had to stop myself after saying something that was punitive, and back
up, apologize, establish with the child I was starting over, and stick
to the refined form of non-punitive methods.

I got immediate results. Sometimes I was tempted (and I did with the
very very sick children) to make a deliberate error, stop, apologize,
and start over for the profound impact it had on the child...by the
surprize of an adult doing that with them.

The first time I apologized to a child (and they were clearly doing
unwanted behavior) I was stunned at this child, who would hit other
workers with a chair, or kick them, when he came of to me and wrapped
his arms around me and held on like I was his long lost teddy bear.

Finally, someone had treated him humanely and respectfully. His
treatment progressed...after being stuck for about 6 months. And t
progressed rapidly as I was asked to train others in the methods I was
using.

And trust me, that wasn't easy. Mental health treatment for adults and
children had been on a punishment model for a very long time.
Retraining staff was no little feat. I'm very proud of the work I did.

like when info was posted that
CPS agencies in all 50 states failed compliance audits.


What in hell would LaVonne care about that for? She doesn't post to
CPS ngs. She doesn't discuss CPS except to attempt to steer The Plant
Back to the on topic ngs instead of the Sap The Plant splashed about
here.

She had challenged it but after proof was posted,
she never acknowledged it in any way whatsoever.
That seems like a kind of cult like behavior to me.


On the contrary, the posting of out of context quoted claims, from
highly convoluted and author caveat notated data is what I find highly
cult like behavior.

As an academic that has won her Phd I would assume that when someone
makes such outrageous claims she would either not think it worth her
time (knowing by now what a pack of rapid nitwits you folks are) to
research, or she would research and likely come to same conclusion as
I: your claims can't be considred valid on the weakness of them being
quoted out of context and often from data that isn't even primarily on
the CLAIM issue you are making.

All the states have NOT completed the federal assessments (the word
"audit" is being ignorantly or viciously thrown around after biased
reporters used it). Those that have have not failed in all seven
sections of the assessments.

Your attempts by claim they failed the "audits" thereby to discredit
state CPS's is akin to someone claiming that a triathelete is a
failure as an athlete because he won only two of his competitive legs.

She also accused me of computer crime, breaking
into her e-mail.


Bull****. She speculated if you might be the culprit. I've made the
same speculation. Well, have you?

When the accused immediately jumps to the claim the questioner is
lying it doesn't do much for his creditiblity. "Methinks thou dost
protest too much."

The University of Minnesota
Board of Regents may have to ""discipline""
LaVonne soon for that. She used her U e-mail
to libel/slander me saying she wouldn't
"let me off the hook" for what is computer crime.
(When in fact my e-mail was getting flooded
with anonymous filler e-mails as well.)


Show us the post. At the very most she said "IF you were the perp."

Her pig-headedness, even when one of her allies
Kane, tells her she's wrong on something, is obvious.


Please point out an instance for us. She and I may disagree but I've
not seen her behave in any but a polite manner...now as for
MESELF....R R R R R

It will be her undoing on this libel/slander thing.


Still looking for someone to sue, eh? Well, I'll tell you what, if you
are just dyin' to get yourself involved in a law suit, why don't you
call up the regents at her university and tell them what you think
about her, and while you are at it see if you can post to a campus
resource students and faculty and access and see....little stupid
asshole....who sues how and wins?

And trust me, I'll take up a collection to help fund any suit against
you, and I'll find some way to expose ALL OF YOUR POSTS to these ngs
in discovery.

Don't let these people push you to swear in public.


You are a walking talking posting obscenity, you asshole.

You really don't want to in any way match Kane's swearing.
He is his own worst enemy.


Really? So far I've been very good to myself.

I think I agree with you that emotional abuse can
be very harmful,


Bull****. What would you call making a little girl not related to you
strip naked and shower in front of you for wetting herself, a reward?

however, I truly believe that CPS
agencies are utterly and completely unable to muster
any competency in this area over a population other
then the select few they seek to vilify.


This was a totally spanking oriented thread, until you drug it once
again off topic to YOUR little ****ant concerns.

You sit there on your dead ass, picking up cans and bottles for refund
as your total financial contribution to your keep in the home of your
"fiance" here daughter removed because YOU are there for over two plus
years now, and pretend that you are the defender of moral issues
concerning CPS.

What a prick.

CPS incompetence in this area would cause great harm.


What area? More babble?

On the bright side, though, the American Gulag side
of this might cause their complete downfall.


Suckin' that bong water again, Whore?

I just wouldn't want to pay that price to get rid of them.


Not an ounce of sense in a carload of ****.

If CPS agencies continue to progress into accusing
parents of emotional abuse,


They rarely do that. The term they use is psychological abuse. And
that means measurable deficits in child development caused by actions
or inactions of the parent or other caregivers: intellectual,
physical, psychological, and social deficites.

These deficits are the ones that cost society dearly. They are the
foundation for criminality. Prisons are full of the children that have
been abused and neglected into criminality by their parents.

they might indeed
regret the precident this might open up regarding
emotional abuse of removals, STATE CARE, or
caseworker lies, etc.


"Babble babble babble," as per usual.

It might not happen right
away, but I would expect the emotional abuse
gambit would eventually backfire on them terribly.


In what way? Parents that don't use punitive parenting, and for that
matter those that do, rarely ever cross paths with child protective
agencies. There simply aren't enough investigators, or disclosure of
abuse, for it to be a problem for families.

In my families' case


What "families' case" is that? That isn't your family. You intruded on
a needy single mother, proceeded to behave in a rude and dangerous
manner toward the little girl, and the state caught up with you before
too much happened (though we can't really be sure of the extent of
your showering the girl given it's all your story).

they tried to claim certain
things were traumatic for the child, but they
have never taken the child to a psychologist.
It's just not logical.


How do YOU know if they did or not? You think the mother tells you
everything? Hell, she may really want to get her child back and she
knows or senses what a danger you are to that process....given the
court's response to your stupid offensive ranting "Motion" to the
court.

Yah gottah read this folks to get what you are communicating with in
these ngs when you read Greegor:

http://tinyurl.com/v8h0

THIS was how he attempted to "help" his "fiance" get her daugher back.

To turn them loose playing amateur psychology with
kids en masse would very likely lead to more HARM
than good.


That's why children are taken to trained psychologists for
assessments. My bet is CPS in your case did so and your "fiance" was
proscribed from telling you.

And seeing how you go off she was well advised to follow the order of
the court on that issue. The court has probably directed CPS to order
her NOT to discuss a damn thing with you. She must be living in hell,
having lost her daughter, but so needy she can't just dump your sorry
ass and the **** you filled up her house with out on the sidewalk.

I question how many caseworkers could
qualify as sane enough to judge others psyche, even
if they DID have credentials, which they don't.


We know that in some states as many as 30% have college degrees in
social work, and very likely the remaining 70% have college degrees in
other likely related disciplines. The recent claim, from a garbage
piece of biased no-by-line signed ap article, that only 20% or so had
degrees failed to mention that they were including ALL child welfare
employees...clerical and other support staff...while NOT isolating
caseworkers as a groups and seeing how many of them had degrees.

If the government spent 200 billion dollars a year,
put a caseworker on every corner, and removed
a million kids on anything vaguely suspicious,
Child Abuse would persist, even if you DON'T
count the excessive removals as Child Abuse
and if you don't count abuses in State Care.


So that is an argument for what....doing away with child protection by
the state?

Dennis H wrote
Non spanking is a fairly recent development pushed forth
by psychologists.. The recent phenomena of never using
negative reinforcement out of fear of damaging the poor
child's psyche has resulted in more emotionally damaged
children than ever in history. They cannot deal with
criticism because of the spoon fed nonsense, and we wind
up with more and more Columbine type situations from
these disturbed individuals. YOU are doing more damage
than the occassional spanker who teaches his children
hurtful behavior can have consequences.


This was very well put. - Greg in Iowa


No, actually it's neurotic defensive tripe. Non-spanking has been
around for centuries. This isn't the only country on the planet, and
even here in the good ol' US of A there are families that never
spanked. It's so out of tune for them they don't even notice they
don't...seriously.

I've met a few and questioned family members and been universally
greeted with statements like, "what are you talking about?" "Gosh, I
never really thought about it...we were just too busy in our family
learning and enjoying and living life," and "Spanking! You've got to
be kidding...only the most insane abusive parent would do that."

And I notice you are congratulating someone that thinks that
"Columbine type situations" are the outcome of NOT spanking and
punishing in a country that reports 90% plus of the population having
been spanked.

Would you say that has even the least bit of logic in it, Dummy?

But then you people never are too long on logic.

Kane
 




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