The way I view it, there are two key issues that need to be considered in
regard to the views expressed by this article (and in regard to Steve's
somewhat similar views):

1) How consistently do purely non-punitive approaches work? The fact that
some parents have marvelous success without needing to use punishment and
write articles about their success in no way implies that all parents who
use those methods would have similar success - and especially does not imply
that parents forced into using such methods without being truly committed to
them the way the author was would have similar success. What the article
provides in regard to evidence in success is purely anecdotal in nature.
Frankly, I view it as hypocritical for Chris to resoundingly vilify
anecdotal evidence when used by people who support spanking (as he certainly
did in past times when I was active on alt.parenting.spanking) yet accept
anecdotal evidence in support of non-punitive parenting methods essentially
without question.

I would not be surprised if the methods the author used would have a high
success rate for parents who consistently put in the time and energy to make
them work. But we don't really know how high, and unless the success rate
is one hundred percent, that still leaves the question of what to do in
cases where they fail. Further, the question of what about parents who
don't invest a similar amount of time and energy remains.

2) How much should society demand from parents? There are limits to how
much freedom children can be given without giving children the power to take
away their parents' freedom. With young children, parents cannot go
somewhere and leave the children at home. With children of any age, it is
usually impractical if not outright impossible for parents to come home from
a place they go with their children without bringing their children home
with them (although sometimes it's practical for the kids to get a ride with
someone else). And there are things that it is dangerous for children to do
without a parent there to supervise.

If parents WANT to give up the amount of freedom they have to in order never
to coerce their children, that is one thing. I admire parents who are
willing to go so far out of their way to put their children's interests
ahead of their own. But in my view, trying to FORCE parents to give up the
amount of freedom that they would have to in order to avoid ever coercing
their children is another matter entirely.

In regard to what is fair, keep in mind that adults do not generally have
the power to coerce other adults merely by refusing to cooperate. An adult
cannot say with his actions, "I'm not going, so you can't go either," or,
"I'm staying, so you have to stay too." An adult can't say, "I'm going to
do this, so you have to supervise me." But because of the special
responsibility that parents have toward their children, children can say
those things to their parents merely by choosing not to cooperate.

Unlike Steve, I view life as an opportunity, not a burden. And I don't
think that parents' having the power to choose when to put their own desires
first and when to put their children's first in regard to such issues is an
unreasonable price for children to pay for that opportunity. That certainly
does not mean that I view it as appropriate for parents to order their
children around without even trying to ask nicely, nor does it mean that I
have any respect for parents who almost always put their own interests ahead
of their children's. But I'm not going to condemn people as bad parents
just because they decide to put their own desires' ahead of their children's
at times - even if it means that they sometimes have to coerce their
children rather than allowing their children to coerce them.

Nathan


"Doan" wrote in message
...


On 15 Jun 2004, Chris wrote:

http://www.nopunish.net/PWP.pdf
http://www.nopunish.net/pwp-ch1.htm


Great! Then let's ban ALL forms of punishment. Come on, Chris. Why
don't you and Kane0 go down to the local juvenile hall and proclaim
loudy in a Reaganish way: "...tear down this wall"? :-)

Doan