Very serious question about child "abuse"

I am seriously considering reporting this couple to cps.
I will discuss it with friends and family, but I have gotten good
advice here in the past, and want to run it by you too.

Let me relate a story I heard this week. Friends of mine (an older husband
and wife couple)
were visited by their nephew. He brought his wife and her child (by another
man) who is 3.
(no, he has not adopted the baby, and the bio father will have nothing to do
with any of them)
They showed up at 7:00 p.m. The baby climbed out of the back seat, no car
seat, no seat belt.
My friends cooked them dinner. When it came to the baby, the
"father" said, "do you have any cereal". My friends produced a box of cereal
and the baby ate.
They parents never offered the baby any table food. (the baby has no dietary
restrictions).
During dinner, the baby began to recite a nursery rhyme. To my friends shock
and horror, it
went like this. "Little miss muffet, sat on a tuffet, eating her curds and
whey. along came a spider
and sat down beside her and said what's in the bowl bitch!" at which the
parents were reduced
the gales of laughter. My friend told them they should not teach the child
(3 years old remember) such things.
and the "father" replied, "it's ok, he knows when to say it and when not
to".
At nine the baby fell asleep in the floor. At 10 my friends said it was too
late for the family to drive
home and offered to let them spend the night. They accepted, and continued
to visit. My friends
finally asked, "don't you want to bathe the baby and put him to bed?" The
answer was, "no, he's
used to sleeping on the floor." (this was hard tile, no blanket..nothing.)
Finally at 11:30 after many
hints of going to bed, they took the baby and went to bed. (they slept on
the bed, and put the baby on the floor,
(this room had carpet)even though there was a baby bed in the room.
The next morning one of my friends went to work and the other stayed home
with the "company".
At 10:30 am, the bedroom door opened and the baby was shoved out and the
door closed. Neither parent
appeared. My friend was in total shock as the baby wandered the house for a
bit, said hello and sat down beside him.
after waiting a few moments for a parent to appear, my friend changed the
baby's diaper (he was soaked)
and fed him breakfast. The first parent finally emerged from the bedroom at
1:30. He walked into the kitchen,
took out a box of cereal, poured some in a bowl (no milk) and told the baby,
"come eat your lunch". My
friend explained that the baby already had cereal (and milk) for breakfast
and could cook him a lunch.
The parent said, "no, he can eat this, he is used to it". The parent made no
effort to check the baby, change the baby or anything, just went outside to
smoke. When he came back in, he said he had to run errands and left. No, he
did
not acknowledge the baby or even ask my friend to watch him. At 3:30 (yes,
in the afternoon) the mother
emerged from the bedroom. She stopped and talked to the baby, hugging him,
then put him down.
(she did not ask if he had been fed or changed and did not check his diaper)
She did not ask where her
husband was.
She went back to her room, packed, and the father showed up and they left by
4:30.
During the whole time the parents were away in the bedroom, the baby played
quietly
or watched TV, paying little or no attention to my friend unless he was
prompted. He never
cried and rarely spoke. It really seemed that the little kid had learned to
fend for himself.

Now, this kid was neither starved nor beaten, but in my mind, he is a victim
of abuse.
jo

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 20:09:13 GMT, "jojo"
wrote:

snip

Now, this kid was neither starved nor beaten, but in my mind, he is a victim
of abuse.
jo

I don't think he's a victim of abuse, but a victim of parents that
need some parenting classes.
Some of what you report isn't appropriate, and some I wouldn't have a
question with.... such as the bedtime and sleeping on the floor. I
don't see much wrong with that.

However, it does sound like the parents do need some help being better
parents.

Nan

In article , Nan says...

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 20:09:13 GMT, "jojo"
wrote:

snip

Now, this kid was neither starved nor beaten, but in my mind, he is a victim
of abuse.
jo

I don't think he's a victim of abuse, but a victim of parents that
need some parenting classes.
Some of what you report isn't appropriate, and some I wouldn't have a
question with.... such as the bedtime and sleeping on the floor. I
don't see much wrong with that.

However, it does sound like the parents do need some help being better
parents.

Nan



Right. Some of the stuff isn't great (like diet), but not neglect of such
magnitude that it's not within parental perogative or at least not of magnitude
to make calling CPS an appropriate action IMO. A three-year old is not a
"baby", first of all. Not all kids need a very interactive parenting style,
although these parents seem to be on the inactive side of the scale. It may
look very extreme to someone who is used to seeing and expects a lot of parental
involvement with things like bathing and other night-time rituals. The parents'
hours might look strange to an early-riser.

I'd say this description has some things which are just different from the kind
of life the poster is used to (like, so what if someone's day starts in - yes -
the afternoon), and some things which are a little neglectful.

Banty

Cut

Now, this kid was neither starved nor beaten, but in my mind, he is a
victim
of abuse.
jo


Yes I have to agree. Fact : In a step family postion, step fathers are more
likely to abuse a child then a step mother.

Anyway I would be reporting it, Or at least trying to seek help for them to
raise the child a little different. Parenting class or something else of the
like. Or maybe talking to the parents to see what they say and think about
it.

I can understand if the child was old enough to ask for cereal. My kids have
gone though phases where they only wanted to eat cereal every time but it
was usually out grown within a few days and I still offered normal other
food that I eat with every meal.

And with sleeping on the floor, Sometimes my kids have done that but I
usually put a pillow under there head and a blanket on them. Sometimes I
pick them up and put them into bed.

I wonder how both parents (natural and step involvement) were raised ? They
say you learn from your parents.

Gee, My 3 year old was toilet trained and talked the head off anyone whom
cared to listen.

I think neglect,


Nic

"Nan" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 20:09:13 GMT, "jojo"
wrote:

snip

Now, this kid was neither starved nor beaten, but in my mind, he is a
victim
of abuse.
jo

I don't think he's a victim of abuse, but a victim of parents that
need some parenting classes.
Some of what you report isn't appropriate, and some I wouldn't have a
question with.... such as the bedtime and sleeping on the floor. I
don't see much wrong with that.

None of it is abusive taken on its own, poor parenting maybe, but when
looking at the big picture, it appears very neglectful.

"Nic" nospam@nospam wrote in message
. ..

Cut

Now, this kid was neither starved nor beaten, but in my mind, he is a
victim
of abuse.
jo


Yes I have to agree. Fact : In a step family postion, step fathers are
more
likely to abuse a child then a step mother.

The sad thing is when the bio mom is so afraid of being single that she'll
ignore or go along with the abuse just to keep the guy.

"jojo" wrote in message
om...
(...)

Now, this kid was neither starved nor beaten, but in my mind, he is a
victim
of abuse.
jo

Neglect, but probably not actionable. He eats and occaisonally gets his
diaper changed. And, apparently, the parents found a babysitter for the day
(the old adage can only be taken advantage of with your permission). I am
particularly concerned by the lack of contact between parents and child.
Perhaps these people can visit your friend more often and your friend can
raise the kid. the parents aren't.

Jeff

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 20:09:13 GMT, "jojo"
wrote:

I am seriously considering reporting this couple to cps.
I will discuss it with friends and family, but I have gotten good
advice here in the past, and want to run it by you too.

Let me relate a story I heard this week. Friends of mine
(an older husband and wife couple) were visited by their
nephew. He brought his wife and her child (by another
man) who is 3. (no, he has not adopted the baby, and
the bio father will have nothing to do with any of them)
They showed up at 7:00 p.m. The baby climbed out of
the back seat, no car seat, no seat belt. My friends
cooked them dinner. When it came to the baby, the
"father" said, "do you have any cereal". My friends
produced a box of cereal and the baby ate. The parents
never offered the baby any table food. (the baby has no
dietary restrictions).
During dinner, the baby began to recite a nursery rhyme.
To my friends shock and horror, it went like this. "Little miss
muffet, sat on a tuffet, eating her curds and whey. along
came a spider and sat down beside her and said what's in
the bowl bitch!" at which the parents were reduced to gales
of laughter. My friend told them they should not teach the
child (3 years old remember) such things. and the "father"
replied, "it's ok, he knows when to say it and when not to".
At nine the baby fell asleep in the floor. At 10 my friends
said it was too late for the family to drive home and offered
to let them spend the night. They accepted, and continued
to visit. My friends finally asked, "don't you want to bathe the
baby and put him to bed?" The answer was, "no, he's used
to sleeping on the floor." (this was hard tile, no blanket..nothing.)
Finally at 11:30 after many hints of going to bed, they took the
baby and went to bed. (they slept on the bed, and put the
baby on the floor, (this room had carpet)even though there
was a baby bed in the room. The next morning one of my
friends went to work and the other stayed home with the
"company".
At 10:30 am, the bedroom door opened and the baby
was shoved out and the door closed. Neither parent appeared.
My friend was in total shock as the baby wandered the house
for a bit, said hello and sat down beside him. after waiting a
few moments for a parent to appear, my friend changed the
baby's diaper (he was soaked) and fed him breakfast. The
first parent finally emerged from the bedroom at 1:30. He
walked into the kitchen, took out a box of cereal, poured
some in a bowl (no milk) and told the baby, "come eat your
lunch". My friend explained that the baby already had cereal
(and milk) for breakfast and could cook him a lunch. The
parent said, "no, he can eat this, he is used to it". The parent
made no effort to check the baby, change the baby or anything,
just went outside to smoke. When he came back in, he said
he had to run errands and left. No, he did not acknowledge the
baby or even ask my friend to watch him. At 3:30 (yes, in the
afternoon) the mother emerged from the bedroom. She stopped
and talked to the baby, hugging him, then put him down. (she did
not ask if he had been fed or changed and did not check his
diaper) She did not ask where her husband was. She went
back to her room, packed, and the father showed up and they
left by 4:30.
During the whole time the parents were away in the bedroom,
the baby played quietly or watched TV, paying little or no attention
to my friend unless he was prompted. He never cried and rarely
spoke. It really seemed that the little kid had learned to fend for
himself.

Now, this kid was neither starved nor beaten, but in my mind, he
is a victim of abuse.
jo

Sounds more like neglect than abuse, but you are right to *think*
about reporting them. Still I would want to know if there was a way
to talk to them about what was going on first. Perhaps the husband
resents the boy because he is the child of another man, but that is no
excuse for neglecting him and his mother ought to be responsible for
taking real care of him not just leaving him alone.

CPS involvement it not always helpful, however. Since this is your
friend's nephew, I would say that they might be able to talk to him
about his parenting and to suggest that he and his wife take some
parenting classes. If his wife was neglected, she is simply passing
on the same behavior.

Now, btw, I don't think it is awful for a 3 year old to sleep on the
floor *if* he is comfortable. But the description of the boy as not
being very interactive with people does suggest problems with
his development and that can be caused partly by his parents
neglecting to interact with him. I do hope that this couple gets
some help.



--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

As far as I am concencered this child is not getting a proper diet, and
should by now be starting to be toilet trained. As far as sleeping on the
floor... if he wakes easily I can see leaving him on the floor..you did say
he was moved to another room so IMO he should have been put into the bed.
If youknow that this is a continuous behaviour by the parents and that they
are not going through something with the child right now, just neglect,
then I would say to phone the authorities and have them check into it. You
are only thinking of the child, and should be. as far as not bathing him
before going to sleep... I don't feel a child needs a bath every night..as
long as they get one every other night ( 3-4 times a week) that is fine.

IMO pushing him out the door and closing it behind him at 10:30 and staying
in bed until 1:30 or 3:30 is not acceptable...he's 3 and his needs should
come first...the parents should be taking care of him, in the morning his
diaper should be checked by them and he should be given breakfast by them,
had they gotten up within an hour ( by 11:30 ) that would be acceptable, but
they didn't check on him until 1:30. Not lunch at 3:30 in the afternoon as
his only meal !! ( which would have been the case had your firend they were
staying with not stepped in and fed him.

Karen


"jojo" wrote in message
om...
I am seriously considering reporting this couple to cps.
I will discuss it with friends and family, but I have gotten good
advice here in the past, and want to run it by you too.

Let me relate a story I heard this week. Friends of mine (an older husband
and wife couple)
were visited by their nephew. He brought his wife and her child (by
another
man) who is 3.
(no, he has not adopted the baby, and the bio father will have nothing to
do
with any of them)
They showed up at 7:00 p.m. The baby climbed out of the back seat, no car
seat, no seat belt.
My friends cooked them dinner. When it came to the baby, the
"father" said, "do you have any cereal". My friends produced a box of
cereal
and the baby ate.
They parents never offered the baby any table food. (the baby has no
dietary
restrictions).
During dinner, the baby began to recite a nursery rhyme. To my friends
shock
and horror, it
went like this. "Little miss muffet, sat on a tuffet, eating her curds and
whey. along came a spider
and sat down beside her and said what's in the bowl bitch!" at which the
parents were reduced
the gales of laughter. My friend told them they should not teach the child
(3 years old remember) such things.
and the "father" replied, "it's ok, he knows when to say it and when not
to".
At nine the baby fell asleep in the floor. At 10 my friends said it was
too
late for the family to drive
home and offered to let them spend the night. They accepted, and continued
to visit. My friends
finally asked, "don't you want to bathe the baby and put him to bed?" The
answer was, "no, he's
used to sleeping on the floor." (this was hard tile, no blanket..nothing.)
Finally at 11:30 after many
hints of going to bed, they took the baby and went to bed. (they slept on
the bed, and put the baby on the floor,
(this room had carpet)even though there was a baby bed in the room.
The next morning one of my friends went to work and the other stayed home
with the "company".
At 10:30 am, the bedroom door opened and the baby was shoved out and the
door closed. Neither parent
appeared. My friend was in total shock as the baby wandered the house for
a
bit, said hello and sat down beside him.
after waiting a few moments for a parent to appear, my friend changed the
baby's diaper (he was soaked)
and fed him breakfast. The first parent finally emerged from the bedroom
at
1:30. He walked into the kitchen,
took out a box of cereal, poured some in a bowl (no milk) and told the
baby,
"come eat your lunch". My
friend explained that the baby already had cereal (and milk) for breakfast
and could cook him a lunch.
The parent said, "no, he can eat this, he is used to it". The parent made
no
effort to check the baby, change the baby or anything, just went outside
to
smoke. When he came back in, he said he had to run errands and left. No,
he
did
not acknowledge the baby or even ask my friend to watch him. At 3:30 (yes,
in the afternoon) the mother
emerged from the bedroom. She stopped and talked to the baby, hugging him,
then put him down.
(she did not ask if he had been fed or changed and did not check his
diaper)
She did not ask where her
husband was.
She went back to her room, packed, and the father showed up and they left
by
4:30.
During the whole time the parents were away in the bedroom, the baby
played
quietly
or watched TV, paying little or no attention to my friend unless he was
prompted. He never
cried and rarely spoke. It really seemed that the little kid had learned
to
fend for himself.

Now, this kid was neither starved nor beaten, but in my mind, he is a
victim
of abuse.
jo

toto wrote

Sounds more like neglect than abuse, but you are right to *think*
about reporting them. Still I would want to know if there was a way
to talk to them about what was going on first.

CPS involvement it not always helpful, however. Since this is your
friend's nephew, I would say that they might be able to talk to him
about his parenting and to suggest that he and his wife take some
parenting classes. If his wife was neglected, she is simply passing
on the same behavior.

I totally agree. It does sound like neglect, and it could, I think,
get worse as the child grows older. However, I am not at all sure that
CPS intervention would be positive. At best, they might come in and
investigate, and make the parents resent the child all the more. At
worst, the child could be removed to a foster family or a series of
foster families, which could make the situation much worse.

I wonder, are there other family members who could intervene? It
sounds as though maybe the parents need to be talked to by people they
care about and will not feel threatened by. And if they are neglecting
him through lack of knowledge, rather than indifference to the child,
then referrals to parenting classes might well help.

If they really don't want to handle raising the kid, they might even
consider relinquishing him for adoption while he's still young enough
to place fairly easily.

Rupa