My question for spankers

LOL! Lie, "never-spanked" boy, lie!

Doan


On 20 Jan 2006, 0:- wrote:

Dance monkeyboy dance.

Oh dear Kane ***I*** would be that barrier if need be.

Originally Posted by Kane

beccafromlalaland wrote:
Obviously you would use Natural consequences within the confines of what
is age appropriate. Your 2yo son may not understand that wandering into
the street could result in serious injury. Then it is your job to
participate in some GOYB (get off your butt) Parenting. There are
times when Natural consequences are not appropriate. In those
situations you have to be the teacher, not the car speeding down the
street

You mean to tell me becca tongue in cheek you would set up a barrier
between your child and a hungry lion, rather than just spanking him to
teach him to say away?

How gauche.

0:-



Jeremy James Wrote:
Becca

Your suggestion would work in some cases but certainly not in all of
them.
For example, my 8yo daughter has a habit of leaving her bicycle in the
front
yard even though I have told her sevral times to make sure she puts it
in
the garage. If her bicycle were to get stolen, I would let suffice as
her
punishment...you neglected a rule and now you do not have a bicycle.
On the
other hand however, if my 2yo son were to wander out into the street,
should
I allow him to get hit by a car? That would certainly teach him a
lesson
wouldn't it?

Jeremy


--
beccafromlalaland

Jeremy,

You appear to be confused about principles that guide the use of natural
consequences, prevention, and the age of the child.

Natural consequences occur as a result of one's actions, in this case, a
child's. Natural consequences require no parental intervention.
Natural consequences are never appropriate when the health and safety of
the child is compromised. This is why allowing a toddler to wander in
the street to learn safety is not an appropriate natural consequence.
However, allowing an 8 year old to experience the natural consequence of
having her bike stolen as a result of not putting it away could be an
appropriate use of natural consequences. Personally, I'd put her bike
away for her, or remind her again and again, because I choose to pick my
battles carefully.

Natural consequences would not be appropriate for a two year old
wandering in the street. This would violate the principle that natural
consequences must never compromise the health or safety of the child.

Two year olds also do not have the responsibility of keeping themselves
safe. That is their parents' responsibility. Spanking a toddler will
not keep a toddler safe or out of the streets. Parents must practice
prevention -- do not allow a toddler to EVER have the opportunity to
enter a street alone.

LaVonne

Jeremy James wrote:
Becca

Your suggestion would work in some cases but certainly not in all of them.
For example, my 8yo daughter has a habit of leaving her bicycle in the front
yard even though I have told her sevral times to make sure she puts it in
the garage. If her bicycle were to get stolen, I would let suffice as her
punishment...you neglected a rule and now you do not have a bicycle. On the
other hand however, if my 2yo son were to wander out into the street, should
I allow him to get hit by a car? That would certainly teach him a lesson
wouldn't it?

Jeremy

I would really like to take this post apart ...
a look at whats happening to our kids , and children of today
im not going to be a for or against , i just want to ask to you
what do you really think to accomplish by....

Kane wrote:
Jeremy James wrote:

Becca

Your suggestion would work in some cases but certainly not in all of them.
For example, my 8yo daughter has a habit of leaving her bicycle in the front
yard

Well we all do that sometimes in our lifes , sometime maybe even you
have left the keys in the car and locked it out ... i dont seem how
punishment of this magnitude is justified , i think that considering
age and whats going on that spanking does not resolve any issue here.
If she/he began to throw a tantrum, curse and be a spoilt brat then i
might consider some harser punishment.

even though I have told her sevral times to make sure she puts it in
the garage. If her bicycle were to get stolen, I would let suffice as her
punishment...you neglected a rule and now you do not have a bicycle. On the
other hand however, if my 2yo son were to wander out into the street, should
I allow him to get hit by a car? That would certainly teach him a lesson
wouldn't it?


Would anyone here let your eyes of a 2 year child especially a known
wonderer,to go walking outside , to leave any dooor accesable to a child
of such a young age?

I would be extra vigelent and aware of such things happening. so
hopefully something like that would never be the case anyway!

However at such a young age they need to learn whats right and whats
wrong, a simple No dont do that "replace with name" , every time and the
reward them somehow with a gift or a gift of being with them and
playing, just being with them is the greatest gift any child could ask.


Jeremy



If I may, in the interest of better parenting.

I doubt there is a parent on the planet, unless severely compromised by
some mental disability that would fail to notice a child is 8 or a
child is 2 years of age and change their interventions accordingly.

You may say that but there is an ever increasing parental problem ,
that would let 2 , 5 ,8, 16 year olds get away with murder because the
do not know or want to be able to deal with any problem.
So any due interventions go unpunnished , uncontrolled and sometimes
with complete ignorance from both parent and growing preteen(8-12).
This all stems to how the parent reacted well before the age of 5 or 6.

on a side note ask yourself What is the trend of Teen Suicides , Teen
Shootings , Teen Games like "Hanging" .where do you think that all stems
from?



If you want to contribute please try to let go of the attempts to
debate with fallacious arguments to "win" and focus on real needs.


The want to get to any soultion and agreement is to debate and to win
if you dont want to "win" or believe you are correct,then you have no
leg to stand on.

Take the bicycle example. What various strategies might be more likely
to work?

You talk of stratergies , who are we dealing with first of all
in this example an 8 year old Girl, whats her comprihention of life?
how does she react to a situation , has she been taught about things
like ownership and responsibility, if yes then a stronger form of
punishment should be in hand as this girl would of already knew of
whats right and wrong , has her own responsbilty , knowledge that if
told more than twice that a form of punishment would be on the horizon.

Now i know some of you are going to flame this to death , but stand
back and look at how us as human beings follow suite . and it all starts
from a sinlge point in childhood. A theif is caught what do you expect
will happen , they would be tried and punnished.

Now we cant lock up our children even though many courts are now
trying children under new laws depending how serveer , we need to teach
our children that the world isnt going to put up with foul mouthed ,
irresponsable, ignorant children. Not for our sake but for their future
the teaching of whats right and wrong and goes alongside a question that
hardly ever gets asked , what are the parents like do the follow the
saying " do as i say , not as i do " , because that is never going to work.
I rather liked simply writing the bike off and letting the 8 year old
sort that out.

Writting the bike off is one thing , teaching children to respect
their own property and each others propery gets let behind , not delt
with , forgotten ....

One could be helpful and sympathetic and understanding

It one thing to be sympathetic but its another thing not to show a
child when they are wrong , remember we dont just live i the now , we
arnt dogs we are humans , that have deep roots in what has happened to
us before , and what decides our future.

of our human failings like forgetting to put things away. Can I assume
you too suffer, like all the rest of us, from that one?

As already explained above, yes we are human and yes we do forget ,
but we also forget that certian problems arrising in recent years is
that parents have either become to relaxed or to harsh , there is the no
median.
We either see the runaway child with absolutly no discapline,
churning out increasing problems like Bipolarism having no control at a
young age tend to bring more problems during the bipolar teen years (13+).
Thus we have the complelty different side of the problem, abused
children, affraid to mutter a single word , lift a single finger without
being bruised , beaten or sometimes dead.


What do you do after you have lost some tool to rust from leaving it
outdoors overwinter, or you wallet no the top of the car and drive
away?

Do YOU, and all the rest of us, not simply do our best to recover from
the loss?

We are adults that have already learnt the process , its also more
likely that being over 40 you will be accetable to increasing spouts of
forgetfulness ... thus once again we are human .


Hell, I'd explain all that to an 8 year old, and in our talk
elicite responses as to her ideas on how we ALL could reduce our
forgetfullness.

Reducing such things is possible but sometimes the human factor of
lazyness you have missed complelty , the i couldnt be bothered syndrome
if you done something like that at your workplace your boss isnt going
to be sympathetic to you , no way you are on the street , half opened
breifcase , with no job, probably loose your wife and kids in the
process, and thats worse punishment than a tap on the wrist or but
sorry, You can survive with little or better know damage , but you sure
gonna be scared for life loosing all that .... would you agree....
unless that is something you are not prepared for in life?

As we go through life just like the new H&R advertisement shows you
start your life as a opps and as you get older those opps end up with
serious fines, shouldnt we be teaching that to kids ? Its not all
Daisy's and green grass , Theres a more horrid Cell possibly with your
name on it ...
you as a parent could be the person that makes it green or Grey thats
up to you ...? I woudnt go saying that but have that in the back of your
mind the next time your let your child get away with sometime so small
that tiny (opps)

Once engaged she is going to feel you and she are in
this together, which of course as parent who cares and child who trusts
YOU ARE.

that all depends on the parents and the daughter/son , how the interact
with each other , how much time you spend doing stuff together, if you
have a child that you never actually talk to , or gives them everything
they want , talking isnt going to do a single thing , its going to be a
yes mom , yes dad , 15 mis later back to square 1.

THIS is how you created children that grow to be responsible adults,

Show them responsibility by showing the parents are responsible for
their own actions is a great start. Lead as you mean to go on,
Communicate from day 1. and day 1 is today.

not by punishment. But by consequenses that include seeking solutions
and recoveries.


As in the real world the consequenses comes in the form of punishment,
and that sometimes the only solutions is punishment, and the way from
punishment is away to recovery. By the real world i mean how society
deals with crime.



Any ideas about how the child could go about "recovery" after a bike is
stolen.

That could only depend on so many various parts to the problem , has
it happened just the once , or many times. Has the child just ignored
your attempts to show examples of responsibility , was this the one
single time a human made a small mistake? theres loads more but in all
its up to the parent to decide , what should the next process be.

What would you do after your lawn mower, after you forgot to lock the
storage shed, ws stolen? Do you hit yourself on the butt with a switch,
give yourself a time out, send yourself to your room, or

No i would go to the police are bring justice upon the juvinile that
stole it , and seek damages from both juvinile and parents .


Why IS it that we think pain is the best teacher when in fact that is
true for all those creatures that do NOT have speach, and the power to
create goods and physical situations like humans do?

Pain is not the best teacher and if any one think that then you are
wrong, however stricter forms of punishment would bring an understanding
of i should not to that again .


That IS our great power over the animals....that we can modify our
environment and continue to IMPROVE.

Are we improving , we are at war , we fuss over fuel ,money , crime is
at an all time high , teaching standards are down, Enviromental
disasters are happening every day ... We are so very much improved do
you think ...

They can only do it without ONE
lifetime, if at all (very rare) but we have history, recent and long
past, that continues our growth. Why not use what we have been given my
God, the Universe, etc. (according to one's belief)?

If you belief in god then read what he supposed to of said and do what
one preaches and examine closely what god says... all over the bible it
says you shall do wrong you will be punnished upon this earth as in gods
name shal it be so .. So if one speaks of god then you should do as god
says , or just pick and choose which parts ... if one does not want to
bring religion into the matter then its best left out from the start...


Just for the sake of education: your arguement is an attempt to argue
two dissimilar
situations. In debate it is referred to as "Fallacy of Accident."

What SEEMS logical in one circumstance does not actually always apply
in another because conditions are not the same or have changed.


agree
In fact what can be right in one circumstance could be wrong to the
point of dangerous in another.

agree

Do you honestly think the becca would suggest using the logical or
natural (your example was the "natural," of course) consequences if it
would endanger a child?

You should never endanger your child or yourself period

If we are going to seek better parenting how about being honest and
logical about it, rather than having a silly war?

This is kind of strange you are saying that it is best to be honest and
up front and then when someone comes along and is being honest , who is
the one that restarts the war on the very next line?

And why must your child be "punished" or there even be a "rule" about
what she does with her own belongings other than when they impact YOU,
such as leaving her bike behind your car in the driveway?

It all depends on whats happened before , if things esculate into
lazyiness , unresponsiilty, ignorance thus you are going to have a
problem , that may result in the need to punnish.



If she loses HER possession that YOU do not have to replace, like
eyeglasses, or a winter coat you have the perfect opportunity to teach
real world life skills.

"DO NOT have to replace!" isnt Eye care , keeping your child warm and
healthy one of the most and utter highest responsibity of any parent?

You bought the bike. You are upset the gift was not appreciated enough
for her to protect. Without making a huge thing about it you could
express that. And be ready to move on to help her come out of any guilt
she feels at YOUR loss. Best way?

Why do you have to focus just on his lost maybe its not the loss what is
the problem , more the fact of the response of the child and the
responsibility that it incures ?

Help her resolve HER loss.

What about a child that doesnt give two hoots of any loss , because they
know that they will just get another one

Am I getting through here?

Im a tad bit loosing you here

It's the same you'd treat a best friend, or one that thinks you are.

Would you berate, punish, humiliate your friend if he had his favorite
garden tools stolen because he forget and left them out?

Nope , but sure would if i found out he stole it , friend or no friend.
Police here i come , anyway how old is this friend ? and does he /she
already know what responsibility is and isnt he/she old enough to
understand there are people out there that are thief ? Do they
understand the value of personal belongings. Plus Berating and
humiliating is completly different than punishment , i have seen more
Berating and humiliating actions from Children to their parents in malls
and in public areas in the last decade, than a sngle parent humiliating
a child.

Naw you'd lend
him yours, go on a shopping trip with him, or even lend him a few bucks
if he needed them to replace the tools.

And that is how love is expressed, and how people learn far more
effectively and powerfully than any application of pain. It's efficient
too, because there is no healing to do.

Love is unconditional but Respect is Gained and Earnt with out respect
there is Chaos.


Kane


Whiz