Dr. Dobson again.

Doan wrote:
On 23 Jan 2006, 0:- wrote:


Doan wrote:
On 23 Jan 2006, 0:- wrote:


Doan wrote:
On 23 Jan 2006, 0:- wrote:


beccafromlalaland wrote:
ah yes the famous dog fight I think that is in the first chapter of "the
strong willed child" isn't it?

As I was reading that, I thought "if he treats his beloved dog in that
fashion, how did he treat his children"


The only "debate" you'll find on this topic here from those willing to
have parents use CP on their children (and sometimes worse) is that
"Parents know their children best," as if the "experts" who do write
and study on such issues of child development and non punitive or non
cp parenting methods are attempting to claim they know an indivual
child best.

And who was it that claimed the following about the Hutterites:

Kane:
"It's the non-violent gentle nature of their parenting with a fine tuned
application of developmentally approriate teaching."


The logic is of course deliberately off track because of course the
spankers have no other reasonable logical support for hitting children,
other than arguing about whether hitting is spanking and similar
illogical tripe.

You meant like:

Doan:
So spanking is now part of a "non-violent gentle nature"???

Kane:
"It was in this instance. It has been in research provided by you in the
past."

Don't you just love the logic of the anti-spanking zealotS! ;-)

Doan

You seem to forget I posted the correction. How is it you are such a
hypocrit?

What correction?

Tell you what. I'll start jumping to your commands when you start
apologizing when I prove you wrong. Deal?

Let's see if you are man enough to apologize.

We could start something new here.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.p...9dca63aa3a0101

From my post to Michael with your comments fully attributed:
'
"But, on to the question of the "Hutterites" and corporal punishment of
children.

http://www.peacefulsocieties.org/Society/Hutter.html

Well, it doesn't say they do spank, nor that they don't spank.

My bet...they do.

I have no problem with being corrected.

On the other hand, do you think spanking is how they managed to be a
society that thrives?

Why do you and the monkeyboy so cowardly avoid accepting when you are
wrong?

I suppose the answer is in my admittedly rhetorical question.

You are cowards.

Kane 0:-
'
Notice my words, "Well, it doesn't say they do spank, nor that they
don't spank.

The question is not whether they spank or don't spank, but your claim that
they do it rarely and that it's part of their "non-violent gentle nature"!

No, Doan, the question is, and what you first challenged me was whether
or not I correct my misundertanding of the practicies. I corrected it
and you can't let go because it show, from my posts, that you were
wrong when you suggested I hadn't corrected it.

Yes, they do it rarely and you can tell that from the Hutterite e-mail
I recieved. The language is pretty clear.

You just dont' want to see it because you are about winning and getting
attention, not about accurate information. But we are used to that. You
have I think almost a decade of the same style.

My bet...they do.

I have no problem with being corrected.
"

In my next posting in the thread on your accusation I posted the
following: "Well, let me help you explain. The dancing screeching
monkeyboy could
not read what I said (which included that Hutterites likely DO
spank...it's just a low priority for them in child rearing...and most
certainly NOT why they "thrive.")

In the same post I said this:
"I''ve even posted an e-mail to the Hutterite community asking if
they'd
mind filling me in on their practices concerning child discipline.

I'll share their answer if it does not breach confidentiality. But I
certainly won't mangle it or claim they said something they didn't to
try and "win" a debating contest as this silly ass has made a practice
of for many years now. "

Which I followed up on later in the same thread with the Hutterite
reply that plainly said they DO spank.

Would that not be a "correction" of my original mistake in saying I
thought they might not spank?

You cherry picked my words, singling out those that would fit with the
lying accusation you wished to make. You are without honor, no Face,
boy.

Here from my own post...the reply from the Hutterite PR person I
exchanged e-mails with:

"Hi,
Hutterites believe in addressing the issues and setting boundaries. We
do
not have a problem with using the strap when appropriate. We do
however
stress that it's the misbehaviour that's the problem and not the child.
As
such parents will use "corporal punishishment" in some cases.
Good day
Mark"
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.p...926fc598d75351
Dated 15 Jan 2006 13:50:07 -0800.

And you read it, Doan. Because you replied in the very next ng posting
with your usual diatribe. I had posted a correction and you continued
to try and turn it into an error. Your usual lying bull****.

What correction? You said you never claim that they spank! Why do you
need a correction? A correction of what you NEVER claimed???
Logic and the anti-spanking zealotS....are they mutually exclusive?

Yes, a correction. I was lead to believe by a source I read that they
never spank. When you mentioned more information I honorably
acknowledged I could be wrong, in that vein went to the souce, the
Hutterites themselves for an answer. Informing I was going to, and
posting, as promised their response that proved me incorrect. Is that
not a correction?

I didn't really claim they didn't spank. I speculated. All one has to
do is read my posts.

And acknowledge the facts in the words there.

You are lying Doan and apparently more to yourself. No one that reads
you and has the patience to follow our conversations can miss it.

You get caught. You dodge the bullet. You do so by various means, but
your favorite is to attack on another front and ignore that you were
wrong.

You demanded proof of a correction, I provided it, now you wish to move
the goalposts. Typical Doan duplicitiousness. And childish to boot.

And how is it rather than answer the issue posted you dodged again?

So why aren't you defending Dr. Dobson?

Why should I? I am not the one that said that you should believe the
"experts". YOU ARE! Why aren't you defending the parents?

You have used Dobson as a counter to other experts, Doan. You are lying
again.

No. I don't believe in "experts". I believe the parents are the expert
pertaining to their own kids.

Doan I posted a whole series of your references to Dobson as a source
for counter argument. You aren't fooling anyone with your nonsense
above but youself. You may not know you are lying, but you most
certainly are, and to yourself, which is extraordinary, and I believe
related the abuses that you think was just parental discipline,
spanking, by your parents.

You want to cruise through these posts before tendering the second
apology to me that you owe?

LOL! What I've quotes are verifiable facts. Just the facts mam! ;-)
I think you owe me an apology here.

NO, I own you nothing. You have lied continuously. You refuse to
acknowledge when I have responded to your demands and provided what you
asked for.

See your message here...
Dr. Dobson again.
... Directly. http://tinyurl.com/clyoh Remember spankers, this guy
claims he's "spanking."
"god obedience school: will the senate 'dare to discipline' dobson? ...

alt.parenting.spanking - Jan 23, 9:19 am by Doan - 8 messages - 3
authors

Funny....Dobson guest on L.King 1x a year.
Strange, if Dobson is indeed *lunatic fringe* that Larry King Live
features
him as a guest at least 1x a year. Oh geez, here we ...
alt.parenting.spanking - Jan 15 2003, 6:10 pm by Doan - 5 messages - 5
authors

Kane0 chokes yet again.
... No honor. A liar and a cheat. Age: 14 months of age. Even the evil
Dobson
wouldn't recommend spanking children this young! No, but he comes very
close. ...
alt.parenting.spanking - May 14 2004, 8:21 pm by Doan - 4 messages - 2
authors

A book review.
I've also found this: Reviewer: Matthew Dodd (The Pentagon, USA) - See
all my reviews
I highly recommend this revision of Dobson's 1971 classic, "Dare to ...

alt.parenting.spanking - Feb 26 2005, 10:06 am by Doan - 9 messages - 3
authors

Doan on neutrality and logic. The Middle Years to Present
a123sdg321 http://tinyurl.com/z6yt Note that he touts James Dobson as
an expert
in parenting practices because he has a PHd in child development. ...
alt.parenting.solutions - Dec 19 2003, 10:24 am by Doan - 16 messages -
2 authors

A short assignment
... I said nothing about you! Really? Have you read Dobson? ;-) Dobson
... Did Dobson
recommend CP in all cases? Can you tell me who does? No ...
alt.parenting.spanking - Sep 13 2003, 7:48 pm by Doan - 40 messages - 7
authors

Ugly Sounds of an Actual Spanking
... Is it "normative" in your own life? The mother in the soundfile is
following
the advice of parenting authors such as James Dobson to a tee. ...
alt.parenting.spanking - Nov 24 2003, 2:57 pm by Doan - 19 messages - 5
authors

How Children REALLY React To Control
... is applicable to you and what is not. Hey, even Dobson recommended
Thomas
Gordon. :-) Doan How Children Really React to Control ...
alt.parenting.spanking - Jun 8 2004, 12:38 am by Doan - 971 messages -
31 authors

Responding to Arguments Against Corporal Punishment
... to parent. What parents really want is, How did you become an
expert on
"what parents really want?" You James Dobson are yah? if ...
misc.kids - Jan 12, 11:35 am by Doan - 147 messages - 20 authors

See your message here...
One More Nail in Spanking's Ugly Coffin
... Experts??? You mean like Dr. Dobson? ;-) Doan has stated he knows
where
the line is between the two. You are being stupid again! ...
alt.parenting.spanking - Jun 6 2004, 8:33 pm by Doan - 30 messages - 8
authors

New Study Slams Spanking
... Also note that no one here is recommending spanking for children
under two years
of age! Baloney. The great "Dr. Dobson" has been touted on the ng for
years. ...
alt.parenting.spanking - May 7 2004, 11:55 am by Doan - 30 messages - 5
authors

"No fear" a police off. perspective on punishment
... He appears to be a Dobson on steroids...more cruel, more dangerous
(he recommends
doing things that can cause permanent damange to the recipient), and
more ...
alt.parenting.spanking - Apr 2 2004, 10:12 pm by Doan - 22 messages - 6
authors

Greasy-haired blond killers
Does LaVonne have a PhD? Some professors don't. She does. So does
Dobson! ;-) Doan
alt.parenting.spanking - Oct 21 2003, 9:24 am by Doan - 14 messages - 6
authors

Excuse Me???? Researchers admit spanking behavior not ...
... parent. Really? So we are to believe Dobson, who has a Ph.D. in
Child
Development and had written many books on the subject??? Or ...
alt.parenting.spanking - Jul 9 2003, 9:33 pm by Doan - 10 messages - 6
authors

Spanking is Wrong; So Is the Study That Says So
... Actually, I am just having fun at your expense. ;-) You are the one
that also demanded
to see a Ph.D. When I told you that Dr. Dobson has a Ph. ...
alt.parenting.spanking - Dec 12 2002, 7:35 pm by Doan - 122 messages -
11 authors

SPANKING IS NOT HARMFUL
... Perhaps then your assertions about what constitutes a "wrong
premise" would be more
credible. Dobson has a PH.D. Should I close my eyes and take his words?
...
alt.parenting.spanking - Nov 27 2002, 4:25 pm by Doan - 38 messages - 8
authors

A great article on spanking
... A few prominent researchers dug in their heels, and James Dobson
was the lone
professional who stood firm with his book Dare to Discipline. ...
alt.parenting.spanking - Feb 28 2004, 3:23 am by Doan - 8 messages - 5
authors

| | Kids should work...
... When I see you mount arguments as vociferously against Dobson,
Lazelere, Baumrind
and other apologists and supporters of spanking, including those people
that ...
alt.support.foster-parents - Dec 8 2003, 3:53 pm by Doan - 13 messages
- 3 authors


Isn't he one of those parents that chose to spank, as you advocate for
choice?

I said the parents should have a choice. Aren't you the one that said
they should not?

Nope. I have never said that. In fact for years I advocated for no anti
spanking LAW and a voluntary change over to gentle parenting methods.
You know that. That would hardly be consistent with No Choice, now
would it?

I now advocate for the law, but know that parents will still have a
choice. 0:- It's just going to be more painful for both if they chose
spanking, the child and the parent. It's about time.

Or should he not get a choice for some reason?

Who?

Dobson. Can't you follow? Is this too complex for you?

I said, "
So why aren't you defending Dr. Dobson?"

Then
"
Or should he not get a choice for some reason?
"

And they were not separated by all this prose when you asked, "who?"

Would this represent a change in your self titled advocacy for people
making their own choices, or are you a hypocrite and instead of
admitting the man is a thug, you'll now hide from my question?

He is the "expert"! Are you claiming to be an "expert" too, Professor
Kane0? Where did you teach? ;-)

Here comes the dodge! ;-)

Absolutely. I told you I was going to "dodge," and my reasons, very
pausible ones. I will not put other people at jeapordy for your little
childish footstomping when all they are are dodges on your part.

And please note, you just used this to dodge the lie you presented
about your not appealing to authority, Dobson in particular. You
claimed you didn't. I've shown you did and now you are posting on a
tangent to avoid admitting you were caught lying to yourself.


Yes, I am an expert. I am a parent. And I my coursework was in this
field. My professional life consisted of a great deal of involvment
with parenting, and I own my own company (retired now) that included
parent training for both ordinary families and families that were
having serious behavioral problems with their children.

I worked for many years in treatment with juviniles and latency age
children in mental health treatment facilities. People here, like
yourself, have been told these things before.

And how do I know that you are telling the truth?

YOu don't. I don't know you are. The congruence in context is what you
have to do with as I do. What about my posting here is incongruent with
my claims?

And no, I'm not giving thugs like you my former employers address. You
will, if you decide you are finally cornered for good, likely break
down and start attacking me by contacting them and lying as you do
here. It's been done before.

I have???

Where did I say you have?

Are you unfamiliar with the tense of "if?" It's future tense. As is
the sentence.

When I say, it's been done before, obviously if I used future tense for
you in the previous sentence, I am talking about someone else in the
next sentence.

Is this too much for you to follow? English really isn't quite that
hard, and your use of it for your continual dodges is silly childish
nonsense.

Your posts to the cisco newgroups make it plain your english is fine
and you do understand standard english, so you are faking when you
pretend not to. As in posting as though english isn't your first
language.

Fortunately I have an excellent professional reputation. I simply don't
make a big thing out of my credentials in places such as this. Too many
liars...you among them...too many mentally challenged folks that are
probably in need of meds stabilization. You might be one yourself.

Now you call me a liar! How typical! ;-)

Are you claiming I'm lying?

If so on what basis?

Do you have proof my professional reputation among collegues,
employers, contractees, and those I worked with is not excellent?
Please post your proof.

I rarely mention my credentials here. Post times I have. We'll take a
count and see if it qualifies as doing so too many times.

And "might" is speculative. Speculation cannot be, by definition, a
lie. It's simply speculation.

Hence you are the one lying by attempting to mislead the reader, or
apparently, yourself.

Your flights of fancy appear near delusional at times, like challenging
me, after a lengthy thread where I repeatedly corrected my original
statement about Hutterites, as though I had not.

Correct what? What is your "original" claim? What is it that you
corrected to? You are not making any sense!

I claimed Hutterites were unlikely to spank. I was obviously wrong, and
when I had the correct information I posted it. How does that not make
sense?

You can't seem to remember from a week ago what's posted. You continue
and argument as though your opponent had not answered already, when
they have.

No you haven't. What is it that you "corrected"?

See above.

You have harrassed good people, who care about children, professionals
some of them that work hard in children's best interests. That's why I
call you a thug.

You are lying! That's is why I call you Ignoranus Kane0! ;-)

I am lying about your harrassment and name calling and provoking?

Please. I posted YOUR posts wherein you did so, without reason.
Someone spoke politely and YOUR NAME wasn't even mentioned, and you
jumped in with insultes from the beginning of you comments. You are
lying now to deny it.


You simply are one.

And you are STUPID!

You are a thug. Calling me stupid is an example. Your constant
provocation, your misusing another's statements by selective out of
context quotes, and making up responses that do not not apply to the
full statement of the other person is thuggish behavior.

And you seem quite delusional.

And you are rude!

Absolutely. I am not the one claiming I am not. You are.

And I proved you are rude, churlish, a liar, and stupid as well. Just
by reposting your own words, IN FULL, not out of context.

A new poster asks you a simple question and once again, just as in the
past, if they are NOT a spanking advocate, of on your little sly
dodging and innuendo.

becca will learn, just as the others did, what a foul little **** you
are.

Or she will learn how STUPID and OBNOXIUS you are! ;-)

I'm perfectly willing for her to. In fact, you can be sure, that if I
am rude to her it will be with reasons from her posts. I doubt it will
happen, as she appears to be rational, honest, and devoted to finding
facts. My rudeness to you is always in response toy our failings those
areas.

And not until you push it.

She and I, for instance, disagree most profoundly on religious matters.
Did you see me insult her when she stated her beliefs?

And I'm an athiest.

I respect people's beliefs unless they are harmful in some way. YOURS,
Doan, are monumentally harmful to children when acted upon by parents.

When you start defending the nospanking approach as vigorously as you
defend spanking I'll believe your claim of neutraility and that you
truly believe that the choice is up to the parent.

You lie, you compound your lies by lying more. And your talent for
dodging is only second to a weasel.

And you areSTUPID and OBNOXIUS "never-spanked" boy! ;-)

Let me see now, you call me stupid, and obnoxius, in a scream
(screeching monkeyboy) then play your trump cardm "'never-spanked" boy!
;-)'" as an insult but I'm obnoxious?

You claim you are not unless attacked. Yet I seem to be far more
devoted to that practice that you are...that of holding back on rude
attacks until attacked. Certainly with new people.

That is why I invite people to read your posting history. Few do,
presuming that we are just having personal feud.

What? You can't convince them?

No. Why should I be able to? They don't know us.

I expect and admire people that do their own research. Clever little
****s like you are out to fool them, and rarely you succeed, so more
important than anything I say, or you say, is what they find.

If they are your kind, they'll side with you, as expected. If they
aren't your kind, even if they aren't my kind, they will know you for
what you are. I don't need them on my side, just not on yours.

And I've nothing to lose because along the way, after sorting thugs
like you, the people left will take care of themselves. They would
obviously be intelligent and honest.

That's why they'd catch you are your garbage.

The thugs?

I don't care about them. They like you are incorrigible anyway.

And like your JJ I just posted to a few times, here for reason other
than looking for real debate and fact finding in the CP controversy.

Those that do, get it very quickly who fouly manipulative you are of
the truth.

You are delusional!

I'll leave that up to them to decide. As a liar you aren't to be
trusted to make such judgements. For them to find that out they have to
do their own looking. I can only locate and post a few of your posts
that prove what you are.

Posting more would drive them away by it appearing I'm cherry picking
for effect.

They'll see for themselves I've barely scratched the surface of the
dishonorable things you did and do.

Just following your posting history with Chris Dugan should be enough
to show how dishonorable and lying you really are.

You come here to play at your sick games, and in so doing, create more
belief by parents that spanking is okay, when it is patently NOT so.

You meant I can convince them while you can't??? ;-)

No, mean that folks on the fence might take you at your word, because
if they were spankers, it would feel more "comfortable," since you make
the lying claim you are neutral.

I want them to see you are not, so they can judge your posts in that
context. The truth will nail you every time, Doan.

You owe many an apology, but I'm sure all here would be satified if you
apologized for children to the pain you promote for them.

LOL!

Your defense of ONLY spanking parents, and NEVER of none spankers,
Doan, is obviously a promotion of painful experiences for children. You
have defended spanking in many ways.

I would be, you liar.

Now claim again that I'm stupid.

You are STUPID! ;-)

I knew you could.


Doan

Your whole family would be ashamed of you if they knew. All the Doan's.


LOL! And you mom is proud of you!

Last time I spoke with her, which is the last time I will ever speak
with her again.

She liked truth, and she abhored mealy mouthed avoidance of the truth
just to pretend to be nice, like you are trying to but failiing to do.

Doan

She'd love how I exposed a rotter such as you that would support people
chosing to hit children, and who, like Dobson and Lazarlere are
advocates of hitting children, but not support people that chose not to
and are avocates of not hitting, like Chris Dugan, LaVonne and the many
other posters that were driven away by your drivel.

You are a tiresome twit, Doan, and that's really all your are.
Impotent, hapless, self important, above all self deluding, and with
the manners of a troll, while claiming otherwise.

Kane

On 23 Jan 2006, 0:- wrote:


Doan wrote:
On 23 Jan 2006, 0:- wrote:


Doan wrote:
On 23 Jan 2006, 0:- wrote:


Doan wrote:
On 23 Jan 2006, 0:- wrote:


beccafromlalaland wrote:
ah yes the famous dog fight I think that is in the first chapter of "the
strong willed child" isn't it?

As I was reading that, I thought "if he treats his beloveddog in that
fashion, how did he treat his children"


The only "debate" you'll find on this topic here from those willing to
have parents use CP on their children (and sometimes worse) is that
"Parents know their children best," as if the "experts" who do write
and study on such issues of child development and non punitive or non
cp parenting methods are attempting to claim they know an indivual
child best.

And who was it that claimed the following about the Hutterites:

Kane:
"It's the non-violent gentle nature of their parenting with a fine tuned
application of developmentally approriate teaching."


The logic is of course deliberately off track because of course the
spankers have no other reasonable logical support for hittingchildren,
other than arguing about whether hitting is spanking and similar
illogical tripe.

You meant like:

Doan:
So spanking is now part of a "non-violent gentle nature"???

Kane:
"It was in this instance. It has been in research provided by you in the
past."

Don't you just love the logic of the anti-spanking zealotS! ;-)

Doan

You seem to forget I posted the correction. How is it you are such a
hypocrit?

What correction?

Tell you what. I'll start jumping to your commands when you start
apologizing when I prove you wrong. Deal?

Let's see if you are man enough to apologize.

We could start something new here.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.p...9dca63aa3a0101

From my post to Michael with your comments fully attributed:
'
"But, on to the question of the "Hutterites" and corporal punishment of
children.

http://www.peacefulsocieties.org/Society/Hutter.html

Well, it doesn't say they do spank, nor that they don't spank.

My bet...they do.

I have no problem with being corrected.

On the other hand, do you think spanking is how they managed to be a
society that thrives?

Why do you and the monkeyboy so cowardly avoid accepting when you are
wrong?

I suppose the answer is in my admittedly rhetorical question.

You are cowards.

Kane 0:-
'
Notice my words, "Well, it doesn't say they do spank, nor that they
don't spank.

The question is not whether they spank or don't spank, but your claim that
they do it rarely and that it's part of their "non-violent gentle nature"!

No, Doan, the question is, and what you first challenged me was whether
or not I correct my misundertanding of the practicies. I corrected it
and you can't let go because it show, from my posts, that you were
wrong when you suggested I hadn't corrected it.

Correct what? If you were right from the start, there is nothing to
correct, STUPID!

Yes, they do it rarely and you can tell that from the Hutterite e-mail
I recieved. The language is pretty clear.

REALLY??? Where did they said RARELY?

You just dont' want to see it because you are about winning and getting
attention, not about accurate information. But we are used to that. You
have I think almost a decade of the same style.

Are you sure you are not describing yourself? ;-)


My bet...they do.

I have no problem with being corrected.
"

In my next posting in the thread on your accusation I posted the
following: "Well, let me help you explain. The dancing screeching
monkeyboy could
not read what I said (which included that Hutterites likely DO
spank...it's just a low priority for them in child rearing...and most
certainly NOT why they "thrive.")

In the same post I said this:
"I''ve even posted an e-mail to the Hutterite community asking if
they'd
mind filling me in on their practices concerning child discipline.

I'll share their answer if it does not breach confidentiality. But I
certainly won't mangle it or claim they said something they didn't to
try and "win" a debating contest as this silly ass has made a practice
of for many years now. "

Which I followed up on later in the same thread with the Hutterite
reply that plainly said they DO spank.

Would that not be a "correction" of my original mistake in saying I
thought they might not spank?

You cherry picked my words, singling out those that would fit with the
lying accusation you wished to make. You are without honor, no Face,
boy.

Here from my own post...the reply from the Hutterite PR person I
exchanged e-mails with:

"Hi,
Hutterites believe in addressing the issues and setting boundaries. We
do
not have a problem with using the strap when appropriate. We do
however
stress that it's the misbehaviour that's the problem and not the child.
As
such parents will use "corporal punishishment" in some cases.
Good day
Mark"
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.p...926fc598d75351
Dated 15 Jan 2006 13:50:07 -0800.

And you read it, Doan. Because you replied in the very next ng posting
with your usual diatribe. I had posted a correction and you continued
to try and turn it into an error. Your usual lying bull****.

What correction? You said you never claim that they spank! Why do you
need a correction? A correction of what you NEVER claimed???
Logic and the anti-spanking zealotS....are they mutually exclusive?

Yes, a correction. I was lead to believe by a source I read that they
never spank. When you mentioned more information I honorably
acknowledged I could be wrong, in that vein went to the souce, the
Hutterites themselves for an answer. Informing I was going to, and
posting, as promised their response that proved me incorrect. Is that
not a correction?

You said you never claimed that they "don't spank". If you don't claim
that, then there is nothing to be corrected, STUPID!

I didn't really claim they didn't spank. I speculated. All one has to
do is read my posts.

I did, and you said they did it "rarely", as a part of their "gentle"
parenting!!!

And acknowledge the facts in the words there.

Acknowledge what?

You are lying Doan and apparently more to yourself. No one that reads
you and has the patience to follow our conversations can miss it.

LOL!

You get caught. You dodge the bullet. You do so by various means, but
your favorite is to attack on another front and ignore that you were
wrong.

You are describing yourself, LIAR!

You demanded proof of a correction, I provided it, now you wish to move
the goalposts. Typical Doan duplicitiousness. And childish to boot.

What did I demand? SHOW ME!

And how is it rather than answer the issue posted you dodged again?

So why aren't you defending Dr. Dobson?

Why should I? I am not the one that said that you should believe the
"experts". YOU ARE! Why aren't you defending the parents?

You have used Dobson as a counter to other experts, Doan. You are lying
again.

No. I don't believe in "experts". I believe the parents are the expert
pertaining to their own kids.

Doan I posted a whole series of your references to Dobson as a source
for counter argument. You aren't fooling anyone with your nonsense
above but youself. You may not know you are lying, but you most
certainly are, and to yourself, which is extraordinary, and I believe
related the abuses that you think was just parental discipline,
spanking, by your parents.

YOU ARE LYING, STUPID!

You want to cruise through these posts before tendering the second
apology to me that you owe?

LOL! What I've quotes are verifiable facts. Just the facts mam! ;-)
I think you owe me an apology here.

NO, I own you nothing. You have lied continuously. You refuse to
acknowledge when I have responded to your demands and provided what you
asked for.

I didn't demand anything from you! You are delusional! ;-)

See your message here...
Dr. Dobson again.
... Directly. http://tinyurl.com/clyoh Remember spankers, this guy
claims he's "spanking."
"god obedience school: will the senate 'dare to discipline' dobson? ...

alt.parenting.spanking - Jan 23, 9:19 am by Doan - 8 messages - 3
authors

Funny....Dobson guest on L.King 1x a year.
Strange, if Dobson is indeed *lunatic fringe* that Larry King Live
features
him as a guest at least 1x a year. Oh geez, here we ...
alt.parenting.spanking - Jan 15 2003, 6:10 pm by Doan - 5 messages - 5
authors

Kane0 chokes yet again.
... No honor. A liar and a cheat. Age: 14 months of age. Even the evil
Dobson
wouldn't recommend spanking children this young! No, but he comes very
close. ...
alt.parenting.spanking - May 14 2004, 8:21 pm by Doan - 4 messages - 2
authors

A book review.
I've also found this: Reviewer: Matthew Dodd (The Pentagon, USA) - See
all my reviews
I highly recommend this revision of Dobson's 1971 classic, "Dare to ...

alt.parenting.spanking - Feb 26 2005, 10:06 am by Doan - 9 messages -3
authors

Doan on neutrality and logic. The Middle Years to Present
a123sdg321 http://tinyurl.com/z6yt Note that he touts James Dobson as
an expert
in parenting practices because he has a PHd in child development. ...
alt.parenting.solutions - Dec 19 2003, 10:24 am by Doan - 16 messages-
2 authors

A short assignment
... I said nothing about you! Really? Have you read Dobson? ;-) Dobson
... Did Dobson
recommend CP in all cases? Can you tell me who does? No ...
alt.parenting.spanking - Sep 13 2003, 7:48 pm by Doan - 40 messages -7
authors

Ugly Sounds of an Actual Spanking
... Is it "normative" in your own life? The mother in the soundfile is
following
the advice of parenting authors such as James Dobson to a tee. ...
alt.parenting.spanking - Nov 24 2003, 2:57 pm by Doan - 19 messages -5
authors

How Children REALLY React To Control
... is applicable to you and what is not. Hey, even Dobson recommended
Thomas
Gordon. :-) Doan How Children Really React to Control ...
alt.parenting.spanking - Jun 8 2004, 12:38 am by Doan - 971 messages -
31 authors

Responding to Arguments Against Corporal Punishment
... to parent. What parents really want is, How did you become an
expert on
"what parents really want?" You James Dobson are yah? if ...
misc.kids - Jan 12, 11:35 am by Doan - 147 messages - 20 authors

See your message here...
One More Nail in Spanking's Ugly Coffin
... Experts??? You mean like Dr. Dobson? ;-) Doan has stated he knows
where
the line is between the two. You are being stupid again! ...
alt.parenting.spanking - Jun 6 2004, 8:33 pm by Doan - 30 messages - 8
authors

New Study Slams Spanking
... Also note that no one here is recommending spanking for children
under two years
of age! Baloney. The great "Dr. Dobson" has been touted on the ng for
years. ...
alt.parenting.spanking - May 7 2004, 11:55 am by Doan - 30 messages -5
authors

"No fear" a police off. perspective on punishment
... He appears to be a Dobson on steroids...more cruel, more dangerous
(he recommends
doing things that can cause permanent damange to the recipient), and
more ...
alt.parenting.spanking - Apr 2 2004, 10:12 pm by Doan - 22 messages -6
authors

Greasy-haired blond killers
Does LaVonne have a PhD? Some professors don't. She does. So does
Dobson! ;-) Doan
alt.parenting.spanking - Oct 21 2003, 9:24 am by Doan - 14 messages -6
authors

Excuse Me???? Researchers admit spanking behavior not ...
... parent. Really? So we are to believe Dobson, who has a Ph.D. in
Child
Development and had written many books on the subject??? Or ...
alt.parenting.spanking - Jul 9 2003, 9:33 pm by Doan - 10 messages - 6
authors

Spanking is Wrong; So Is the Study That Says So
... Actually, I am just having fun at your expense. ;-) You are the one
that also demanded
to see a Ph.D. When I told you that Dr. Dobson has a Ph. ...
alt.parenting.spanking - Dec 12 2002, 7:35 pm by Doan - 122 messages -
11 authors

SPANKING IS NOT HARMFUL
... Perhaps then your assertions about what constitutes a "wrong
premise" would be more
credible. Dobson has a PH.D. Should I close my eyes and take his words?
...
alt.parenting.spanking - Nov 27 2002, 4:25 pm by Doan - 38 messages -8
authors

A great article on spanking
... A few prominent researchers dug in their heels, and James Dobson
was the lone
professional who stood firm with his book Dare to Discipline. ...
alt.parenting.spanking - Feb 28 2004, 3:23 am by Doan - 8 messages - 5
authors

| | Kids should work...
... When I see you mount arguments as vociferously against Dobson,
Lazelere, Baumrind
and other apologists and supporters of spanking, including those people
that ...
alt.support.foster-parents - Dec 8 2003, 3:53 pm by Doan - 13 messages
- 3 authors


Isn't he one of those parents that chose to spank, as you advocate for
choice?

I said the parents should have a choice. Aren't you the one that said
they should not?

Nope. I have never said that. In fact for years I advocated for no anti
spanking LAW and a voluntary change over to gentle parenting methods.
You know that. That would hardly be consistent with No Choice, now
would it?

I now advocate for the law, but know that parents will still have a
choice. 0:- It's just going to be more painful for both if they chose
spanking, the child and the parent. It's about time.

Or should he not get a choice for some reason?

Who?

Dobson. Can't you follow? Is this too complex for you?

I said, "
So why aren't you defending Dr. Dobson?"

Then
"
Or should he not get a choice for some reason?
"

And they were not separated by all this prose when you asked, "who?"

Would this represent a change in your self titled advocacy for people
making their own choices, or are you a hypocrite and instead of
admitting the man is a thug, you'll now hide from my question?

He is the "expert"! Are you claiming to be an "expert" too, Professor
Kane0? Where did you teach? ;-)

Here comes the dodge! ;-)

Absolutely. I told you I was going to "dodge," and my reasons, very
pausible ones. I will not put other people at jeapordy for your little
childish footstomping when all they are are dodges on your part.

NO, IT'S YOU!

And please note, you just used this to dodge the lie you presented
about your not appealing to authority, Dobson in particular. You
claimed you didn't. I've shown you did and now you are posting on a
tangent to avoid admitting you were caught lying to yourself.

You are lying again or that you are stupid! Which is it?


Yes, I am an expert. I am a parent. And I my coursework was in this
field. My professional life consisted of a great deal of involvment
with parenting, and I own my own company (retired now) that included
parent training for both ordinary families and families that were
having serious behavioral problems with their children.

I worked for many years in treatment with juviniles and latency age
children in mental health treatment facilities. People here, like
yourself, have been told these things before.

And how do I know that you are telling the truth?

YOu don't. I don't know you are. The congruence in context is what you
have to do with as I do. What about my posting here is incongruent with
my claims?

Everything, I have proven that you are a LIAR. You and LaVonne too!

And no, I'm not giving thugs like you my former employers address. You
will, if you decide you are finally cornered for good, likely break
down and start attacking me by contacting them and lying as you do
here. It's been done before.

I have???

Where did I say you have?

Are you unfamiliar with the tense of "if?" It's future tense. As is
the sentence.

When I say, it's been done before, obviously if I used future tense for
you in the previous sentence, I am talking about someone else in the
next sentence.

Is this too much for you to follow? English really isn't quite that
hard, and your use of it for your continual dodges is silly childish
nonsense.

Your posts to the cisco newgroups make it plain your english is fine
and you do understand standard english, so you are faking when you
pretend not to. As in posting as though english isn't your first
language.

LOL!
Fortunately I have an excellent professional reputation. I simply don't
make a big thing out of my credentials in places such as this. Too many
liars...you among them...too many mentally challenged folks that are
probably in need of meds stabilization. You might be one yourself.

Now you call me a liar! How typical! ;-)

Are you claiming I'm lying?

You are and I have proven that you are a LIAR!

If so on what basis?

From what you have posted! SIMPLE! ;-)

Do you have proof my professional reputation among collegues,
employers, contractees, and those I worked with is not excellent?
Please post your proof.

The burden of proof in on you, not me, STUPID!

I rarely mention my credentials here. Post times I have. We'll take a
count and see if it qualifies as doing so too many times.

LOL! Read the "archives"!

And "might" is speculative. Speculation cannot be, by definition, a
lie. It's simply speculation.

If it is misleading, it's a LIE! YOU ARE A LIAR!

Hence you are the one lying by attempting to mislead the reader, or
apparently, yourself.

LOL! Have you looked in the mirror lately?

Your flights of fancy appear near delusional at times, like challenging
me, after a lengthy thread where I repeatedly corrected my original
statement about Hutterites, as though I had not.

Correct what? What is your "original" claim? What is it that you
corrected to? You are not making any sense!

I claimed Hutterites were unlikely to spank. I was obviously wrong, and
when I had the correct information I posted it. How does that not make
sense?

You should have just admit that you were wrong in the first place!
So now spanking can be a part of a "non-violent" parenting? ;-)

You can't seem to remember from a week ago what's posted. You continue
and argument as though your opponent had not answered already, when
they have.

No you haven't. What is it that you "corrected"?

See above.

You have harrassed good people, who care about children, professionals
some of them that work hard in children's best interests. That's why I
call you a thug.

You are lying! That's is why I call you Ignoranus Kane0! ;-)

I am lying about your harrassment and name calling and provoking?

You are a hypocrit!

Please. I posted YOUR posts wherein you did so, without reason.
Someone spoke politely and YOUR NAME wasn't even mentioned, and you
jumped in with insultes from the beginning of you comments. You are
lying now to deny it.

Who did I insult?


You simply are one.

And you are STUPID!

You are a thug. Calling me stupid is an example. Your constant
provocation, your misusing another's statements by selective out of
context quotes, and making up responses that do not not apply to the
full statement of the other person is thuggish behavior.

Hypocrit!


And you seem quite delusional.

And you are rude!

Absolutely. I am not the one claiming I am not. You are.

And I proved you are rude, churlish, a liar, and stupid as well. Just
by reposting your own words, IN FULL, not out of context.

Hypocrit!

A new poster asks you a simple question and once again, just as in the
past, if they are NOT a spanking advocate, of on your little sly
dodging and innuendo.

becca will learn, just as the others did, what a foul little **** you
are.

Or she will learn how STUPID and OBNOXIUS you are! ;-)

I'm perfectly willing for her to. In fact, you can be sure, that if I
am rude to her it will be with reasons from her posts. I doubt it will
happen, as she appears to be rational, honest, and devoted to finding
facts. My rudeness to you is always in response toy our failings those
areas.

Hypocrit!

And not until you push it.

LOL! How nice of you!

She and I, for instance, disagree most profoundly on religious matters.
Did you see me insult her when she stated her beliefs?

Are you trying to impress her? ;-)

And I'm an athiest.

So what? I DON'T CARE!

I respect people's beliefs unless they are harmful in some way. YOURS,
Doan, are monumentally harmful to children when acted upon by parents.

LOL!

When you start defending the nospanking approach as vigorously as you
defend spanking I'll believe your claim of neutraility and that you
truly believe that the choice is up to the parent.

The choice is up to the parents, NOT YOU!

You lie, you compound your lies by lying more. And your talent for
dodging is only second to a weasel.

And you areSTUPID and OBNOXIUS "never-spanked" boy! ;-)

Let me see now, you call me stupid, and obnoxius, in a scream
(screeching monkeyboy) then play your trump cardm "'never-spanked" boy!
;-)'" as an insult but I'm obnoxious?

YES!

You claim you are not unless attacked. Yet I seem to be far more
devoted to that practice that you are...that of holding back on rude
attacks until attacked. Certainly with new people.

Hypocrit!

That is why I invite people to read your posting history. Few do,
presuming that we are just having personal feud.

What? You can't convince them?

No. Why should I be able to? They don't know us.

So. You can't convince them and you expect me to?

I expect and admire people that do their own research. Clever little
****s like you are out to fool them, and rarely you succeed, so more
important than anything I say, or you say, is what they find.

And "****s" like you are not out to fool them? ;-0

If they are your kind, they'll side with you, as expected. If they
aren't your kind, even if they aren't my kind, they will know you for
what you are. I don't need them on my side, just not on yours.

Who are they???

And I've nothing to lose because along the way, after sorting thugs
like you, the people left will take care of themselves. They would
obviously be intelligent and honest.

Unlike you!

That's why they'd catch you are your garbage.

And your stupidity!

The thugs?

I don't care about them. They like you are incorrigible anyway.

LOL!

And like your JJ I just posted to a few times, here for reason other
than looking for real debate and fact finding in the CP controversy.

LOL!

Those that do, get it very quickly who fouly manipulative you are of
the truth.

You are delusional!

I'll leave that up to them to decide. As a liar you aren't to be
trusted to make such judgements. For them to find that out they have to
do their own looking. I can only locate and post a few of your posts
that prove what you are.

The only liar here is you! Oops, I almost forgot LaVonne! ;-)

Posting more would drive them away by it appearing I'm cherry picking
for effect.

They'll see for themselves I've barely scratched the surface of the
dishonorable things you did and do.

Just following your posting history with Chris Dugan should be enough
to show how dishonorable and lying you really are.

I proved that Chris Dugan is a liar. At least he had the decency to
apologize to me, unlike you!


You come here to play at your sick games, and in so doing, create more
belief by parents that spanking is okay, when it is patently NOT so.

You meant I can convince them while you can't??? ;-)

No, mean that folks on the fence might take you at your word, because
if they were spankers, it would feel more "comfortable," since you make
the lying claim you are neutral.

You can read their mind???

I want them to see you are not, so they can judge your posts in that
context. The truth will nail you every time, Doan.

And I will show them what a liar you are! ;-)

You owe many an apology, but I'm sure all here would be satified if you
apologized for children to the pain you promote for them.

LOL!

Your defense of ONLY spanking parents, and NEVER of none spankers,
Doan, is obviously a promotion of painful experiences for children. You
have defended spanking in many ways.

Why would I have to defend something that is legal?

I would be, you liar.

Now claim again that I'm stupid.

YOU ARE STUPID! ;-)

You are STUPID! ;-)

I knew you could.

So you know that you are stupid too? ;-)



Doan

Your whole family would be ashamed of you if they knew. All the Doan's.


LOL! And you mom is proud of you!

Last time I spoke with her, which is the last time I will ever speak
with her again.

She liked truth, and she abhored mealy mouthed avoidance of the truth
just to pretend to be nice, like you are trying to but failiing to do.

So she is proud of you calling other women "smelly-****"???

Doan

She'd love how I exposed a rotter such as you that would support people
chosing to hit children, and who, like Dobson and Lazarlere are
advocates of hitting children, but not support people that chose not to
and are avocates of not hitting, like Chris Dugan, LaVonne and the many
other posters that were driven away by your drivel.

What a mom!

You are a tiresome twit, Doan, and that's really all your are.
Impotent, hapless, self important, above all self deluding, and with
the manners of a troll, while claiming otherwise.

And you a "never-spanked" boy!

Doan

Doan wrote:
On 23 Jan 2006, 0:- wrote:


Doan wrote:
On 23 Jan 2006, 0:- wrote:


Doan wrote:
On 23 Jan 2006, 0:- wrote:


Doan wrote:
On 23 Jan 2006, 0:- wrote:


beccafromlalaland wrote:
ah yes the famous dog fight I think that is in the
first chapter of "the
strong willed child" isn't it?

As I was reading that, I thought "if he treats his
beloved dog in that
fashion, how did he treat his children"


The only "debate" you'll find on this topic here from
those willing to
have parents use CP on their children (and sometimes
worse) is that
"Parents know their children best," as if the "experts"
who do write
and study on such issues of child development and non
punitive or non
cp parenting methods are attempting to claim they know
an indivual
child best.

And who was it that claimed the following about the
Hutterites:

Kane:
"It's the non-violent gentle nature of their parenting
with a fine tuned
application of developmentally approriate teaching."


The logic is of course deliberately off track because
of course the
spankers have no other reasonable logical support for
hitting children,
other than arguing about whether hitting is spanking
and similar
illogical tripe.

You meant like:

Doan:
So spanking is now part of a "non-violent gentle nature"???

Kane:
"It was in this instance. It has been in research
provided by you in the
past."

Don't you just love the logic of the anti-spanking
zealotS! ;-)

Doan

You seem to forget I posted the correction. How is it you
are such a
hypocrit?

What correction?

Tell you what. I'll start jumping to your commands when you start
apologizing when I prove you wrong. Deal?

Let's see if you are man enough to apologize.

We could start something new here.


http://groups.google.com/group/alt.p...9dca63aa3a0101

From my post to Michael with your comments fully attributed:
'
"But, on to the question of the "Hutterites" and corporal
punishment of
children.

http://www.peacefulsocieties.org/Society/Hutter.html

Well, it doesn't say they do spank, nor that they don't spank.

My bet...they do.

I have no problem with being corrected.

On the other hand, do you think spanking is how they managed to
be a
society that thrives?

Why do you and the monkeyboy so cowardly avoid accepting when
you are
wrong?

I suppose the answer is in my admittedly rhetorical question.

You are cowards.

Kane 0:-
'
Notice my words, "Well, it doesn't say they do spank, nor that they
don't spank.

The question is not whether they spank or don't spank, but your
claim that
they do it rarely and that it's part of their "non-violent gentle
nature"!

No, Doan, the question is, and what you first challenged me was whether
or not I correct my misundertanding of the practicies. I corrected it
and you can't let go because it show, from my posts, that you were
wrong when you suggested I hadn't corrected it.

Correct what? If you were right from the start, there is nothing to
correct, STUPID!

Then obviously I was not "right from the start," and when I discovered
that I posted a correction. What do you find difficult to understand?

Why ask "correct what?"

Yes, they do it rarely and you can tell that from the Hutterite e-mail
I recieved. The language is pretty clear.

REALLY??? Where did they said RARELY?

They didn't. I said the language is clear. Read what I posted. Does it
sound to you like it's a regular occurance.

"Hi,
Hutterites believe in addressing the issues and setting boundaries. We
do not have a problem with using the strap when appropriate. We do
however stress that it's the misbehaviour that's the problem and not
the child.
As such parents will use "corporal punishishment" in some cases.
Good day
Mark"

"when appropriate," and "in some cases."

You may disagree with my assessment of that statement and wish to call
it the opposite, "not rarely," but I think I am entitled to my opinion.

You just dont' want to see it because you are about winning and getting
attention, not about accurate information. But we are used to that. You
have I think almost a decade of the same style.

Are you sure you are not describing yourself? ;-)

Yes, I am quite sure. I'm not interested in winning, but in exposing the
facts. Your's appears to be obscuring the facts. Imagine setting Dobson
up as an example of someone with a PHd in Child Development and making
that the criteria to believe him instead of strauss, a social scientist
I believe.

CD specialists aren't researchers for the most part.

Your logic, your arguments, are nearly all those of a child cheating at
board games. Very silly. Very obvious.


My bet...they do.

I have no problem with being corrected.
"

In my next posting in the thread on your accusation I posted the
following: "Well, let me help you explain. The dancing screeching
monkeyboy could
not read what I said (which included that Hutterites likely DO
spank...it's just a low priority for them in child
rearing...and most
certainly NOT why they "thrive.")

In the same post I said this:
"I''ve even posted an e-mail to the Hutterite community asking if
they'd
mind filling me in on their practices concerning child discipline.

I'll share their answer if it does not breach confidentiality.
But I
certainly won't mangle it or claim they said something they
didn't to
try and "win" a debating contest as this silly ass has made a
practice
of for many years now. "

Which I followed up on later in the same thread with the Hutterite
reply that plainly said they DO spank.

Would that not be a "correction" of my original mistake in saying I
thought they might not spank?

You cherry picked my words, singling out those that would fit
with the
lying accusation you wished to make. You are without honor, no
Face,
boy.

Here from my own post...the reply from the Hutterite PR person I
exchanged e-mails with:

"Hi,
Hutterites believe in addressing the issues and setting
boundaries. We
do
not have a problem with using the strap when appropriate. We do
however
stress that it's the misbehaviour that's the problem and not
the child.
As
such parents will use "corporal punishishment" in some cases.
Good day
Mark"

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.p...926fc598d75351
Dated 15 Jan 2006 13:50:07 -0800.

And you read it, Doan. Because you replied in the very next ng
posting
with your usual diatribe. I had posted a correction and you
continued
to try and turn it into an error. Your usual lying bull****.

What correction? You said you never claim that they spank! Why
do you
need a correction? A correction of what you NEVER claimed???
Logic and the anti-spanking zealotS....are they mutually exclusive?

Yes, a correction. I was lead to believe by a source I read that they
never spank. When you mentioned more information I honorably
acknowledged I could be wrong, in that vein went to the souce, the
Hutterites themselves for an answer. Informing I was going to, and
posting, as promised their response that proved me incorrect. Is that
not a correction?

You said you never claimed that they "don't spank". If you don't claim
that, then there is nothing to be corrected, STUPID!

Of course there is. I would not want to leave the impression they never
spanked, whether I said it or insinuated it. I'm not like you. I don't
want to influence people by propgandistic methods. I want to provide
facts whenever I can and if I find I'm mistaken, or that I might be
misunderstood, and can catch it, I'll correct it or explain with more
clarity so as not to mislead.


I didn't really claim they didn't spank. I speculated. All one has to
do is read my posts.

I did, and you said they did it "rarely", as a part of their "gentle"
parenting!!!

Yes, I said "rarely." And I corrected any confusion by quoting the
Hutterite source that answered my e-mail.

Are you this bound up in making me wrong so you "win?" I already posted
that I was mistaken and even found the correct information and posted it.

Don't you think you've gotten your mileage out of this yet?

And acknowledge the facts in the words there.

Acknowledge what?

That they sometimes spank.

You are lying Doan and apparently more to yourself. No one that reads
you and has the patience to follow our conversations can miss it.

LOL!

Trapped again, aren't you.

You get caught. You dodge the bullet. You do so by various means, but
your favorite is to attack on another front and ignore that you were
wrong.

You are describing yourself, LIAR!

No, I was completely on subject, on thread, and transparent with all the
information I could obtain.

You demanded proof of a correction, I provided it, now you wish to move
the goalposts. Typical Doan duplicitiousness. And childish to boot.

What did I demand? SHOW ME!

If I may, "LOL!"

You are demanding every time you scream, just as you did above in "SHOW
ME!"

And in this case, no. Look yourself.

You frequently fly into childish rages and demand, such as in "I DARE
YOU," etc etc etc.

And how is it rather than answer the issue posted you
dodged again?

So why aren't you defending Dr. Dobson?

Why should I? I am not the one that said that you should
believe the
"experts". YOU ARE! Why aren't you defending the parents?

You have used Dobson as a counter to other experts, Doan. You
are lying
again.

No. I don't believe in "experts". I believe the parents are the
expert
pertaining to their own kids.

Doan I posted a whole series of your references to Dobson as a source
for counter argument. You aren't fooling anyone with your nonsense
above but youself. You may not know you are lying, but you most
certainly are, and to yourself, which is extraordinary, and I believe
related the abuses that you think was just parental discipline,
spanking, by your parents.

YOU ARE LYING, STUPID!

No, Unless we lost the post I most certainly did provide a link to as
well as quotes of some.

Are you blind, or your reader failing you?

You want to cruise through these posts before tendering the second
apology to me that you owe?

LOL! What I've quotes are verifiable facts. Just the facts mam! ;-)
I think you owe me an apology here.

NO, I own you nothing. You have lied continuously. You refuse to
acknowledge when I have responded to your demands and provided what you
asked for.

I didn't demand anything from you! You are delusional! ;-)

I think a screamed COMMAND and question fit nicely into "demand." And we
do have those, "I DARE YOU," bits and pieces throughout your shared
posting history.

You commanded me to send a copy of embry to "becca" right now. When I
said I wouldn't you accused me of dodging. That is in the nature of a
demand.

See your message here...
Dr. Dobson again.
... Directly. http://tinyurl.com/clyoh Remember spankers, this guy
claims he's "spanking."
"god obedience school: will the senate 'dare to discipline'
dobson? ...

alt.parenting.spanking - Jan 23, 9:19 am by Doan - 8 messages - 3
authors

Funny....Dobson guest on L.King 1x a year.
Strange, if Dobson is indeed *lunatic fringe* that Larry King Live
features
him as a guest at least 1x a year. Oh geez, here we ...
alt.parenting.spanking - Jan 15 2003, 6:10 pm by Doan - 5
messages - 5
authors

Kane0 chokes yet again.
... No honor. A liar and a cheat. Age: 14 months of age. Even
the evil
Dobson
wouldn't recommend spanking children this young! No, but he
comes very
close. ...
alt.parenting.spanking - May 14 2004, 8:21 pm by Doan - 4
messages - 2
authors

A book review.
I've also found this: Reviewer: Matthew Dodd (The Pentagon,
USA) - See
all my reviews
I highly recommend this revision of Dobson's 1971 classic,
"Dare to ...

alt.parenting.spanking - Feb 26 2005, 10:06 am by Doan - 9
messages - 3
authors

Doan on neutrality and logic. The Middle Years to Present
a123sdg321 http://tinyurl.com/z6yt Note that he touts James
Dobson as
an expert
in parenting practices because he has a PHd in child
development. ...
alt.parenting.solutions - Dec 19 2003, 10:24 am by Doan - 16
messages -
2 authors

A short assignment
... I said nothing about you! Really? Have you read Dobson? ;-)
Dobson
... Did Dobson
recommend CP in all cases? Can you tell me who does? No ...
alt.parenting.spanking - Sep 13 2003, 7:48 pm by Doan - 40
messages - 7
authors

Ugly Sounds of an Actual Spanking
... Is it "normative" in your own life? The mother in the
soundfile is
following
the advice of parenting authors such as James Dobson to a tee. ...
alt.parenting.spanking - Nov 24 2003, 2:57 pm by Doan - 19
messages - 5
authors

How Children REALLY React To Control
... is applicable to you and what is not. Hey, even Dobson
recommended
Thomas
Gordon. :-) Doan How Children Really React to Control ...
alt.parenting.spanking - Jun 8 2004, 12:38 am by Doan - 971
messages -
31 authors

Responding to Arguments Against Corporal Punishment
... to parent. What parents really want is, How did you become an
expert on
"what parents really want?" You James Dobson are yah? if ...
misc.kids - Jan 12, 11:35 am by Doan - 147 messages - 20 authors

See your message here...
One More Nail in Spanking's Ugly Coffin
... Experts??? You mean like Dr. Dobson? ;-) Doan has stated he
knows
where
the line is between the two. You are being stupid again! ...
alt.parenting.spanking - Jun 6 2004, 8:33 pm by Doan - 30
messages - 8
authors

New Study Slams Spanking
... Also note that no one here is recommending spanking for
children
under two years
of age! Baloney. The great "Dr. Dobson" has been touted on the
ng for
years. ...
alt.parenting.spanking - May 7 2004, 11:55 am by Doan - 30
messages - 5
authors

"No fear" a police off. perspective on punishment
... He appears to be a Dobson on steroids...more cruel, more
dangerous
(he recommends
doing things that can cause permanent damange to the
recipient), and
more ...
alt.parenting.spanking - Apr 2 2004, 10:12 pm by Doan - 22
messages - 6
authors

Greasy-haired blond killers
Does LaVonne have a PhD? Some professors don't. She does. So does
Dobson! ;-) Doan
alt.parenting.spanking - Oct 21 2003, 9:24 am by Doan - 14
messages - 6
authors

Excuse Me???? Researchers admit spanking behavior not ...
... parent. Really? So we are to believe Dobson, who has a Ph.D. in
Child
Development and had written many books on the subject??? Or ...
alt.parenting.spanking - Jul 9 2003, 9:33 pm by Doan - 10
messages - 6
authors

Spanking is Wrong; So Is the Study That Says So
... Actually, I am just having fun at your expense. ;-) You are
the one
that also demanded
to see a Ph.D. When I told you that Dr. Dobson has a Ph. ...
alt.parenting.spanking - Dec 12 2002, 7:35 pm by Doan - 122
messages -
11 authors

SPANKING IS NOT HARMFUL
... Perhaps then your assertions about what constitutes a "wrong
premise" would be more
credible. Dobson has a PH.D. Should I close my eyes and take
his words?
...
alt.parenting.spanking - Nov 27 2002, 4:25 pm by Doan - 38
messages - 8
authors

A great article on spanking
... A few prominent researchers dug in their heels, and James
Dobson
was the lone
professional who stood firm with his book Dare to Discipline. ...
alt.parenting.spanking - Feb 28 2004, 3:23 am by Doan - 8
messages - 5
authors

| | Kids should work...
... When I see you mount arguments as vociferously against Dobson,
Lazelere, Baumrind
and other apologists and supporters of spanking, including
those people
that ...
alt.support.foster-parents - Dec 8 2003, 3:53 pm by Doan - 13
messages
- 3 authors


Isn't he one of those parents that chose to spank, as you
advocate for
choice?

I said the parents should have a choice. Aren't you the one
that said
they should not?

Nope. I have never said that. In fact for years I advocated for
no anti
spanking LAW and a voluntary change over to gentle parenting
methods.
You know that. That would hardly be consistent with No Choice, now
would it?

I now advocate for the law, but know that parents will still have a
choice. 0:- It's just going to be more painful for both if
they chose
spanking, the child and the parent. It's about time.

Or should he not get a choice for some reason?

Who?

Dobson. Can't you follow? Is this too complex for you?

I said, "
So why aren't you defending Dr. Dobson?"

Then
"
Or should he not get a choice for some reason?
"

And they were not separated by all this prose when you asked,
"who?"

Would this represent a change in your self titled advocacy
for people
making their own choices, or are you a hypocrite and instead of
admitting the man is a thug, you'll now hide from my question?

He is the "expert"! Are you claiming to be an "expert" too,
Professor
Kane0? Where did you teach? ;-)

Here comes the dodge! ;-)

Absolutely. I told you I was going to "dodge," and my reasons, very
pausible ones. I will not put other people at jeapordy for your little
childish footstomping when all they are are dodges on your part.

NO, IT'S YOU!

No, up from here is your claim that Dobson is the expert. This after you
claimed you did not use him as such in prior posts. I posted a long list
of references YOU made to Dobson, or responded to other's citing him and
you were in agreement with him being the expert over others because he
has a PhD in child development and has written on the subject.

Stop lying, Doan. It's embarassing me for you. It's so patently obvious
that you are having a little childish fit.

And please note, you just used this to dodge the lie you presented
about your not appealing to authority, Dobson in particular. You
claimed you didn't. I've shown you did and now you are posting on a
tangent to avoid admitting you were caught lying to yourself.

You are lying again or that you are stupid! Which is it?

No, I'm not lying. You are trying to lay down enough input by volume to
discourage anyone from going back and seeing what you said and my reply,
before they get to what is attributed in this post.

Your tricks are growing old. How long have you been doing this now?

All one has to do to see that you are lying, that you did in fact claim
you didn't hold Dobson up as the authority, and my citing those many
posts of yours where you did so, makes it very clear you are either
delusional or lying.

Yes, I am an expert. I am a parent. And I my coursework was in this
field. My professional life consisted of a great deal of involvment
with parenting, and I own my own company (retired now) that
included
parent training for both ordinary families and families that were
having serious behavioral problems with their children.

I worked for many years in treatment with juviniles and latency age
children in mental health treatment facilities. People here, like
yourself, have been told these things before.

And how do I know that you are telling the truth?

YOu don't. I don't know you are. The congruence in context is what you
have to do with as I do. What about my posting here is incongruent with
my claims?

Everything, I have proven that you are a LIAR. You and LaVonne too!

No. You set up an impossible demand, then screamed because we would not
respond. There's nothing clever in that.

I've done it myself. The Question. But only because YOU claimed that
parents know best, and they claim there is an identifiable line. You
couldn't answer not because I was lying, but because you cannot prove
there is a definable line.

And no, I'm not giving thugs like you my former employers
address. You
will, if you decide you are finally cornered for good, likely break
down and start attacking me by contacting them and lying as you do
here. It's been done before.

I have???

Where did I say you have?

Are you unfamiliar with the tense of "if?" It's future tense. As is
the sentence.

When I say, it's been done before, obviously if I used future tense for
you in the previous sentence, I am talking about someone else in the
next sentence.

Is this too much for you to follow? English really isn't quite that
hard, and your use of it for your continual dodges is silly childish
nonsense.

Your posts to the cisco newgroups make it plain your english is fine
and you do understand standard english, so you are faking when you
pretend not to. As in posting as though english isn't your first
language.

LOL!

In other words, you've been playing at Troll all these years?

Kind of figgers. You've got those habits alright. Constantly dodging the
point being made and trying to drag the discussion off on another
tangent to escape when you have been stumped.

Fortunately I have an excellent professional reputation. I
simply don't
make a big thing out of my credentials in places such as this.
Too many
liars...you among them...too many mentally challenged folks
that are
probably in need of meds stabilization. You might be one yourself.

Now you call me a liar! How typical! ;-)

Are you claiming I'm lying?

You are and I have proven that you are a LIAR!

No, you have proven that you can ask questions that I might be mistaken
about. I do not deliberately intend to mislead, ever. Well, something
when my wife buys a new dress I'll fake it for awhile until the
excitement has worn off and gently suggest she try looking at it in
various lighting or with various accessories. She is a smart lady and
gets it.

If so on what basis?

From what you have posted! SIMPLE! ;-)

Lovely answer. No proof, just a claim. The usual troll behavior.

Do you have proof my professional reputation among collegues,
employers, contractees, and those I worked with is not excellent?
Please post your proof.

The burden of proof in on you, not me, STUPID!

No it isn't. You claim I lack credentials against "Dobson" and experts
with PhD, such as Embry so I should not challenge his description of
sitting and thinking about what they have done as "punishment of the
child."

I don't have to prove a thing. YOU do.

On what grounds does the statements of any expert preclude my
questioning their statements?

I rarely mention my credentials here. Post times I have. We'll take a
count and see if it qualifies as doing so too many times.

LOL! Read the "archives"!

I have. You won't post any because you know the truth. The burden of
proving me as having made statements of my credentials is yours. I have
rarely done so, and then withheld my full vitae.

And "might" is speculative. Speculation cannot be, by definition, a
lie. It's simply speculation.

If it is misleading, it's a LIE! YOU ARE A LIAR!

No, speculation is simply speculation. By definition up for the
interpretation of the viewer.

If I claim that something IS factually true, and it is not, and I am
mistaken. I have made a mistake. If I KNOW the facts to be otherwise,
and still claim the incorrect facts, then that is a lie. We can presume
that I do so for some reason to mislead.

But posting what I believe to be facts and my being mistaken, just as I
did with the Hutterites CP practices was not a lie, or I would not have
corrected and clarified publically exactly where I made the error, here.

Hence you are the one lying by attempting to mislead the reader, or
apparently, yourself.

LOL! Have you looked in the mirror lately?

Many times. Most comfortably, because I know how diligently I attempt to
be factual, to correct or accept correction if I find the facts to be
different than I believed.

We spend a lot of time exchanging opinions and interpretations of
INFORMATION. They are not "facts" until proven to. Once I'm reasonably
convinced a tendered piece of information meets the criteria for a fact,
I'll happily say so.

Even the fact that low levels of spanking in intensity and frequency may
not harm a child in a manner that can be detected. For instance.

I point only to the risk...that the line is not clear enough for a
parent to safely make such a judgement when choosing to spank, and that
damage most certainly has been done to a child when the parent thought
they were merely "disciplining."

Your flights of fancy appear near delusional at times, like
challenging
me, after a lengthy thread where I repeatedly corrected my original
statement about Hutterites, as though I had not.

Correct what? What is your "original" claim? What is it that you
corrected to? You are not making any sense!

I claimed Hutterites were unlikely to spank. I was obviously wrong, and
when I had the correct information I posted it. How does that not make
sense?

You should have just admit that you were wrong in the first place!
So now spanking can be a part of a "non-violent" parenting? ;-)

I did.

It can't be.

I posted the information clearly. Why would you assume I'd be holding on
to the idea that Hutterite parenting is non-violent parenting? I made no
such claim after I found the correct information and posted it here.

I assume I do not have to go back through all my postings, cite and
quote them and correct each possible related instance..that MIGHT have
been related.

You are unable to assume that if I correct a claim they don't spank, to
one they do, that I still think that they are totally non-violent
parenting practitioners?

What would you think that?

They are not a violent people I had been told.

I know better now. That's why I corrected my comments.

And on further examination...which is not relevant to this ng, I learned
that indeed they have a considerable amount of trouble in their
organization with child abuse accusations, back and forth between them
in fact.

But again, it's not relevant to the issue I brought up. And corrected
when I found the source I used was incorrect, making my statement
incorrect.

You can't seem to remember from a week ago what's posted. You
continue
and argument as though your opponent had not answered already, when
they have.

No you haven't. What is it that you "corrected"?

See above.

You have harrassed good people, who care about children,
professionals
some of them that work hard in children's best interests.
That's why I
call you a thug.

You are lying! That's is why I call you Ignoranus Kane0! ;-)

I am lying about your harrassment and name calling and provoking?

You are a hypocrit!

You have not answered the question. I have never denied harrassing and
name calling and provoking on my part. Ever.

YOU have denied doing it unless you were first provoked. I showed
instances were people were patient and non abusive in their posting in
response to you where you came back with name calling, usually SHOUTED,
at them.

That makes me anything but a hypocrite if I admit to your charges about
my behavior here. I even posted citations to instances of my doing
exactly that...being very obscene and confrontational.

Never figured out why of course, did you. Just wanted to play the "win"
game.

I had my reasons that have nothing to do with being rude or obscene.
It's about marketing and getting attention focused where it needs to
be...on sickos like Fern that defended people that have their own
children turned over to church members to beat. They even forced 14 year
old girls to marry people 10 years their senior. Very sick stuff, and
Fern seemed to think any state interference was a violation of "parental
rights."

You let such things go by, though you claim you are neutral and support
parents making their own choices. Do you support them making the choice
to force their 14 year old daughters to submit to marriage and sexual
relations when they do not want to, as those children did not?

To being beaten for resisting forced marriage?

Speak right up. You can only hope no one will notice your answer, but
you can be sure, just as your other posts I've cited and quoted, they
will if you insist on playing the fool with us.

Please. I posted YOUR posts wherein you did so, without reason.
Someone spoke politely and YOUR NAME wasn't even mentioned, and you
jumped in with insultes from the beginning of you comments. You are
lying now to deny it.

Who did I insult?

I cited the posts recenty. You can read, can't you?


You simply are one.

And you are STUPID!

You are a thug. Calling me stupid is an example. Your constant
provocation, your misusing another's statements by selective out of
context quotes, and making up responses that do not not apply to the
full statement of the other person is thuggish behavior.

Hypocrit!

I have never denied doing these things. You seem to be. Or you feel they
are okay for you to do, but not me?


And you seem quite delusional.

And you are rude!

Absolutely. I am not the one claiming I am not. You are.

And I proved you are rude, churlish, a liar, and stupid as well. Just
by reposting your own words, IN FULL, not out of context.

Hypocrit!

No, it's you that are by claiming I am. And you do not respond to the
charges with other than name calling.

A new poster asks you a simple question and once again, just as
in the
past, if they are NOT a spanking advocate, of on your little sly
dodging and innuendo.

becca will learn, just as the others did, what a foul little
**** you
are.

Or she will learn how STUPID and OBNOXIUS you are! ;-)

I'm perfectly willing for her to. In fact, you can be sure, that if I
am rude to her it will be with reasons from her posts. I doubt it will
happen, as she appears to be rational, honest, and devoted to finding
facts. My rudeness to you is always in response toy our failings those
areas.

Hypocrit!

Figgers. Nothing to say.

And not until you push it.

LOL! How nice of you!

Yes, isn't it?

She and I, for instance, disagree most profoundly on religious matters.
Did you see me insult her when she stated her beliefs?

Are you trying to impress her? ;-)

No. Are you? In fact I even insulted her beliefs, if one would care to
see it that way, and I certainly did not apologize for my beliefs being
different.

And I'm an athiest.

So what? I DON'T CARE!

So you don't want to deal with an aspect of your claim in my response?

In other words all argument must be either what you accept, or what you
will allow, or what you wish to force others to allow.

Interesting.

I respect people's beliefs unless they are harmful in some way. YOURS,
Doan, are monumentally harmful to children when acted upon by parents.

LOL!

Your laughter proves you don't take this charge seriously.

I would if someone made it of me, and I'd force them to prove it.

Aren't you going to demand I prove you are harmful to children acted
upon by parents whose decision to spank you support?

When you start defending the nospanking approach as vigorously as you
defend spanking I'll believe your claim of neutraility and that you
truly believe that the choice is up to the parent.

The choice is up to the parents, NOT YOU!

I've not told them they can't, or what they must do. I've pointed to the
effects I believe take place. And the choice will be up to the state,
not me. As it already is.

Some make "The Choice" and their children are injured and they are
subject to the law if caught. Some are. Not enough of them, but some.

Would that the others not caught yet didn't have your support so they
would take seriously the issue of risk in using CP.

You lie, you compound your lies by lying more. And your talent for
dodging is only second to a weasel.

And you areSTUPID and OBNOXIUS "never-spanked" boy! ;-)

Let me see now, you call me stupid, and obnoxius, in a scream
(screeching monkeyboy) then play your trump cardm "'never-spanked" boy!
;-)'" as an insult but I'm obnoxious?

YES!

Okay. Have it your way.

I think there was a word used by you though. Quite a lot in this ng. I
think it starts with an "H," doesn't it?

You claim you are not unless attacked. Yet I seem to be far more
devoted to that practice that you are...that of holding back on rude
attacks until attacked. Certainly with new people.

Hypocrit!

No, just factual. I get rude when they appear to me to be deliberately
lying.

That is why I invite people to read your posting history. Few do,
presuming that we are just having personal feud.

What? You can't convince them?

No. Why should I be able to? They don't know us.

So. You can't convince them and you expect me to?

I didn't say I expected you to.

I said they could read your posting history and make up their own minds.
You then attempted a diversion by going tangentally to "What? You can't
convince them?"

I said, "No."

And yet you still wish to pursue it as though I asked you to.

Where did I?

Your posts from the past will.

Though I have to admit they might well be influenced by your comments
currently.

I expect and admire people that do their own research. Clever little
****s like you are out to fool them, and rarely you succeed, so more
important than anything I say, or you say, is what they find.

And "****s" like you are not out to fool them? ;-0

No. I want them to make up their own mind. Look at ALL the evidence. I
have opinions I share, and information that I hope will influence them,
but I'd never try to "fool them."

How would that work?

They'd just, when they discovered I "fooled them" have all the more
reason to go back to using CP on their kids.

Do you think I'm not sincere in wanting them to stop?

If they are your kind, they'll side with you, as expected. If they
aren't your kind, even if they aren't my kind, they will know you for
what you are. I don't need them on my side, just not on yours.

Who are they???

"They???"

You mean it's to complicated for you to understand that I would use they
to refer back to, only a line or two up from you question in the post
being attributed from, "I expect and admire people that do their own
research. "

It's exactly what I said.

And of course since we are in this ng, I guess I would have to mean
readers here.

What do you think I meant? Or who do you think I meant?

And I've nothing to lose because along the way, after sorting thugs
like you, the people left will take care of themselves. They would
obviously be intelligent and honest.

Unlike you!

That's an opinion.

That's why they'd catch you are your garbage.

And your stupidity!

That would be their decision to make. As I said, I'm not concerned about
either. The objective ones that can do their own research and draw their
own conclusions will figure you out for the fraud you are.

The others are as crippled psychologically as you appear to be.

The thugs?

I don't care about them. They like you are incorrigible anyway.

LOL!

I do though, care about their children, and that is why I, just a few
months back in 2005, announced to readers of this ng I no longer
supported an appeal to morals and ethics alone as my stand on CP, but
that I now support a change in the law, and stronger enforcement.

And unlike the Swedes, knowing my countrymen fairly well, and the
examples I've seen come and go here, I'm convinced that severe penalties
are in order. But they should mostly be enforced only if the person
refuses to work toward changing their parenting strategy away from CP,
and expand their nonpunitive skills.

And like your JJ I just posted to a few times, here for reason other
than looking for real debate and fact finding in the CP controversy.

LOL!

JJ is pretty obviously a spanking fetishist that took you in.

Those that do, get it very quickly who fouly manipulative you
are of
the truth.

You are delusional!

I'll leave that up to them to decide. As a liar you aren't to be
trusted to make such judgements. For them to find that out they have to
do their own looking. I can only locate and post a few of your posts
that prove what you are.

The only liar here is you! Oops, I almost forgot LaVonne! ;-)


Claims are not proof.

Posting more would drive them away by it appearing I'm cherry picking
for effect.

They'll see for themselves I've barely scratched the surface of the
dishonorable things you did and do.

Just following your posting history with Chris Dugan should be enough
to show how dishonorable and lying you really are.

I proved that Chris Dugan is a liar. At least he had the decency to
apologize to me, unlike you!

No, he was not a liar. I am not familiar with his response to you, but I
presume if he made a mistake he admitted to it. That's the kind of
honorable person he is.


You come here to play at your sick games, and in so doing,
create more
belief by parents that spanking is okay, when it is patently
NOT so.

You meant I can convince them while you can't??? ;-)

No, mean that folks on the fence might take you at your word, because
if they were spankers, it would feel more "comfortable," since you make
the lying claim you are neutral.

You can read their mind???

You seem to have more and more trouble, the more tightly you are backed
into a corner, with english comprehension.

I said, "might" take you at your word.

That hardly suggests I'm mind reading.

But then it was just one of your pitifyl tries at diversion, wasn't it
then, Doan?

I want them to see you are not, so they can judge your posts in that
context. The truth will nail you every time, Doan.

And I will show them what a liar you are! ;-)

Go for it.

You owe many an apology, but I'm sure all here would be
satified if you
apologized for children to the pain you promote for them.

LOL!

Your defense of ONLY spanking parents, and NEVER of none spankers,
Doan, is obviously a promotion of painful experiences for children. You
have defended spanking in many ways.

Why would I have to defend something that is legal?

I have no idea.

Why do you do so then?

Why do you cite people that are defending the practice?

I would be, you liar.

Now claim again that I'm stupid.

YOU ARE STUPID! ;-)

See. You are so easy.

You are STUPID! ;-)

I knew you could.

So you know that you are stupid too? ;-)

No, that you'd say it, and then stupidly try to weasel out of being
insulting and rude.

Doan

Your whole family would be ashamed of you if they knew. All the
Doan's.


LOL! And you mom is proud of you!

Last time I spoke with her, which is the last time I will ever speak
with her again.

She liked truth, and she abhored mealy mouthed avoidance of the truth
just to pretend to be nice, like you are trying to but failiing to do.

So she is proud of you calling other women "smelly-****"???

I told you she was fine with it. Even if she wasn't she'd still be proud
of my confronting someone like Fern, and you.

Doan

She'd love how I exposed a rotter such as you that would support people
chosing to hit children, and who, like Dobson and Lazarlere are
advocates of hitting children, but not support people that chose not to
and are avocates of not hitting, like Chris Dugan, LaVonne and the many
other posters that were driven away by your drivel.

What a mom!

Yes, she was.

You are a tiresome twit, Doan, and that's really all your are.
Impotent, hapless, self important, above all self deluding, and with
the manners of a troll, while claiming otherwise.

And you a "never-spanked" boy!

I don't know if I can handle that accusation. sob

0:-


Doan

Kane