help me keep my son from perpetuating the cycle of abuse (very long)

Betsy wrote:
In news:[email protected],
typed:
Betsy wrote:
In news:[email protected],


Blaming everything, or most everything on a cycle of abuse is not
the answer. You had some (a LOT) input into your son's behavior.
Even a few years away from abusive relationships can be enough to
turn opinions around.

What part of SEVEN years of abstinence did you not hear me say? Then
I started dating again and the guy I really liked turned out to be
very bad news. So I gave up, obviously I'm not ready and I'm in
therapy at the YWCA.

Apparently, I am not any help in this situation. My apologies for
wasting time and space. Since I have nothing of value to offer I
will shut up now. I do wish you the best, and hope everything works
out for you

You were helpful and I appreciated that you took the time to read my long
request for help and you responded to my desperation. I just felt that you
were focusing on my mental illness as the problem and viewing the entire
context of the cycle of abuse as a way of me trying to avoid responsibility.
And I apologize for my sarcasm, I think I'm just really stressed out about
being abstinent for so long and it having all been for nothing. I'm still
screwed up and my son is way more screwed up than I ever thought capable and
I wish it were due to mental illness, there are pills for that. What is
wrong here is so convoluted that only a lot of time and love and role models
and expert help that we may not be able to get can help.

CME wrote:
wrote in message
news:[email protected]

If it was me, and of course this is the only way I can give you
advice on this issue... and I DO know where you're coming from, in
many ways. But if it was me, I'd try the Tough Love strategy. If he
STEALS your car, you call the Police. If he disrespects you and your
rules, kick him out. I remember what it was like to be 16 and your
son is displaying similar behaviours. My parents gave me a choice.
Either go to school (I dropped out in Gr.11), get a job, or get out.
Of course, being the stubborn fool-headed girl I was, I got out. I
packed some bags and went to stay with friends. It was the best
thing my parents EVER did for me. ****ing wake-up call, let me tell
you. Of course I got into some trouble, I even moved to a different
city for awhile...

I'm so scared that he will wind up on the streets out there, he is not able
to cut it with his peers now, and we just live in a working class
neighborhood, he'd be ripped to shreds out there on the streets, he'd wind
up on drugs, fodder for sexual predators, oh, god.

but you know what? I came back, and not only have
I grown up, I understand my parents and I would have done the same
thing! And I will if my sons ever pull the **** that *I* did. You
are NOT doing him any favours by catering to him. When he leaves
your home as an adult, he won't have anyone to cater to him,

sure he will, there are lots of women just like me! (bowing my head in
shame, it all comes so clear to me now. the abusive guys i've loved, they
abused me because they needed me to take care of them...)

and
he'll grow up thinking the world owes him a favour. Lorian, please,
please stand up for yourself. Do not let him disrespect you like
that, YOU deserve better. Period.

well, i hear you but i can't feel it inside but for today i will take your
word for it. maybe one day soon i will believe it about myself again. i am
trying very hard to pretend and to take steps to stand up for myself but i
am always pretending, so many people treat me like i don't matter, it's not
just my son. it's the police, the hospital staff, the social services
system, but then there are those rare people who see the glow in me and the
light clicks back on...

wrote in message news:[email protected]


"This is part of the result of living with mood swings, dissociation, the
fog
of anti-depressants and the "shock" of post-traumatic stress disorder. And
it is the result of simply not knowing how to set limits and normal
consequences when all you've ever lived in is a war zone."

Don't you think living around and with someone with these problems would
**** up about any kid? I sniped the rest of your post, cause you don't want
my thoughts on it.

you love this kid, let him go, if you have any family that he's comfotable
at, let him go there, if anyone can provide foster care, let him go there.
Jesus H Christ, the kids mother gets comited, is stung up on pain meds and
sedatives, and he freaked out. Look, most people who suffer from co-depence
have the same problem as you, no matter what, you don't see past your nose.
No matter what, you'll feel like you got the raw end of the deal, wether it
be by a cop, a social worker, or your son. Your shrink "believes in you" as
you say, so it's cool with him, unless he calls you on some of this, in
which case he ends up like the cops and social workers.

When the only place you got left [to come for advice is usenet, something
might be wrong.
When every R/L person around you is telling you ya got a serious problem,
you might be wrong
When you still need to blame a man who isn't even around right now, you
might got a problem.
When you, as a grown women, needs to blame things on her mother, you might
got a problem

When all those things happen at the same time, over the same issue, you DO
have a problem.

Get some help, if not for yourself, do it for your kid. How do you expect
your kid to function normally while you carry around all that bagage?

16 years of dealing with LL misandrist rantings......I'm surprised it didn't
happen sooner.

But in her mind...it will always be someone else's fault

"Rolly The Pervert" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
news:[email protected]


"This is part of the result of living with mood swings, dissociation, the
fog
of anti-depressants and the "shock" of post-traumatic stress disorder.
And
it is the result of simply not knowing how to set limits and normal
consequences when all you've ever lived in is a war zone."

Don't you think living around and with someone with these problems would
**** up about any kid? I sniped the rest of your post, cause you don't
want
my thoughts on it.

you love this kid, let him go, if you have any family that he's comfotable
at, let him go there, if anyone can provide foster care, let him go there.
Jesus H Christ, the kids mother gets comited, is stung up on pain meds and
sedatives, and he freaked out. Look, most people who suffer from
co-depence
have the same problem as you, no matter what, you don't see past your
nose.
No matter what, you'll feel like you got the raw end of the deal, wether
it
be by a cop, a social worker, or your son. Your shrink "believes in you"
as
you say, so it's cool with him, unless he calls you on some of this, in
which case he ends up like the cops and social workers.

When the only place you got left [to come for advice is usenet, something
might be wrong.
When every R/L person around you is telling you ya got a serious problem,
you might be wrong
When you still need to blame a man who isn't even around right now, you
might got a problem.
When you, as a grown women, needs to blame things on her mother, you might
got a problem

When all those things happen at the same time, over the same issue, you DO
have a problem.

Get some help, if not for yourself, do it for your kid. How do you expect
your kid to function normally while you carry around all that bagage?

wrote in message news:[email protected]
CME wrote:
wrote in message
news:[email protected]

If it was me, and of course this is the only way I can give you
advice on this issue... and I DO know where you're coming from, in
many ways. But if it was me, I'd try the Tough Love strategy. If he
STEALS your car, you call the Police. If he disrespects you and your
rules, kick him out. I remember what it was like to be 16 and your
son is displaying similar behaviours. My parents gave me a choice.
Either go to school (I dropped out in Gr.11), get a job, or get out.
Of course, being the stubborn fool-headed girl I was, I got out. I
packed some bags and went to stay with friends. It was the best
thing my parents EVER did for me. ****ing wake-up call, let me tell
you. Of course I got into some trouble, I even moved to a different
city for awhile...

I'm so scared that he will wind up on the streets out there, he is not
able
to cut it with his peers now, and we just live in a working class
neighborhood, he'd be ripped to shreds out there on the streets, he'd wind
up on drugs, fodder for sexual predators, oh, god.


And you know what? That's the risk you take, but what you need to do is
make him realize that if he's to live in your house, he needs to respect
your rules and really the choice is his. If he leaves or you kick him out,
it was his choice, and if he does wind up on the street, then you make him
aware that he can always come home.

but you know what? I came back, and not only have
I grown up, I understand my parents and I would have done the same
thing! And I will if my sons ever pull the **** that *I* did. You
are NOT doing him any favours by catering to him. When he leaves
your home as an adult, he won't have anyone to cater to him,

sure he will, there are lots of women just like me! (bowing my head in
shame, it all comes so clear to me now. the abusive guys i've loved, they
abused me because they needed me to take care of them...)

and
he'll grow up thinking the world owes him a favour. Lorian, please,
please stand up for yourself. Do not let him disrespect you like
that, YOU deserve better. Period.

well, i hear you but i can't feel it inside but for today i will take your
word for it. maybe one day soon i will believe it about myself again. i
am
trying very hard to pretend and to take steps to stand up for myself but i
am always pretending, so many people treat me like i don't matter, it's
not
just my son. it's the police, the hospital staff, the social services
system, but then there are those rare people who see the glow in me and
the
light clicks back on...

Just a thought, but have you ever considered that the way people see you, is
a reflection of how you see yourself? How can you expect others to see your
value, if YOU do not even see it? I'm a big believer in self-image and
directing my own life... if you believe you're worthless etc, then why would
others think differently? Not letting people walk all over you is part of
that too, it's about self-respect. I've come a looooong way baby, because I
*used* to see my value through others, namely men, and although I thought I
was a good person, there was always that little voice inside of me, you know
the one, the one that says you're nothing (well it was actually my mother in
my head, but that's another story. lol) Well it's hard work to break that
cycle, and therapy helped me see all these things (well that and just basic
University classes). So if *I* can do it, so can you Lorian.

Christine

"Paul Fritz" wrote in message
...
16 years of dealing with LL misandrist rantings......I'm surprised it
didn't
happen sooner.

But in her mind...it will always be someone else's fault


That is so unfair Paul, I didn't see her blaming her son's behaviour on
anyone BUT herself. Give your ****ing agenda a rest.

Christine
"Rolly The Pervert" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
news:[email protected]


"This is part of the result of living with mood swings, dissociation,
the
fog
of anti-depressants and the "shock" of post-traumatic stress disorder.
And
it is the result of simply not knowing how to set limits and normal
consequences when all you've ever lived in is a war zone."

Don't you think living around and with someone with these problems would
**** up about any kid? I sniped the rest of your post, cause you don't
want
my thoughts on it.

you love this kid, let him go, if you have any family that he's
comfotable
at, let him go there, if anyone can provide foster care, let him go
there.
Jesus H Christ, the kids mother gets comited, is stung up on pain meds
and
sedatives, and he freaked out. Look, most people who suffer from
co-depence
have the same problem as you, no matter what, you don't see past your
nose.
No matter what, you'll feel like you got the raw end of the deal, wether
it
be by a cop, a social worker, or your son. Your shrink "believes in you"
as
you say, so it's cool with him, unless he calls you on some of this, in
which case he ends up like the cops and social workers.

When the only place you got left [to come for advice is usenet,
something
might be wrong.
When every R/L person around you is telling you ya got a serious
problem,
you might be wrong
When you still need to blame a man who isn't even around right now, you
might got a problem.
When you, as a grown women, needs to blame things on her mother, you
might
got a problem

When all those things happen at the same time, over the same issue, you
DO
have a problem.

Get some help, if not for yourself, do it for your kid. How do you
expect
your kid to function normally while you carry around all that bagage?

CME wrote in message ...

And you know what? That's the risk you take, but what you need to do is
make him realize that if he's to live in your house, he needs to respect
your rules and really the choice is his. If he leaves or you kick him out,


Snip other good advice

I have to disagree here Christine as my POV is a lot different to yours.
I do not live in "my" house with my son, I live in our house. House rules
are two way, I don't set them, we agree to them. Obviously at Freddie's age
some basics are more my domain than his but at the age of Lorian's son, and
I have two grown sons go through this stage, there has to be a big element
of give and take based on mutual respect. It seems that going through an
angst stage where he has little respect for her or anyone else for that
matter. He is testing his limits and is finding that they are almost
limitless at the moment. He will not stop until he realises that treating
people with contempt if not the best way in life. He will be thinking, and
not without reason, that everyone around him is treating him with contempt
too. He thinks that he knows better than his mother and is ready and
confident enough to find out for himself. To us it is a dreadfull stage in
the development of an adolescent boy, to him it is merely testing the water
and establishing himself as an adult capable of finding his own way in life.
I left home a 16. I was fed up with the restrictions and expectations of my
father. We fought all the time. I disagreed with everything he said and
stood for. I was going to change the world. I would play Bob Dylan records
at full volume just to **** him off! To an outsider I was an arrogant
arsehole with a big attitude. To myself and my piers I was a self confident
ground breaker who new where he was going for myself.

I suppose the biggest breakthrough was made by my mother as I still remember
it clearly. After a full blast rendition of a Bob Dylan track entitled "My
back Pages" from the Anotherside of LP, she quietly said that she really
liked that one. I was thoroughly ****ed off that I had had the opposite
affect to that intended and went to listen to it again quietly. I had only
heard what I wanted to hear and completely overlooked the chorus.
Here are the words from
http://www.bobdylan.com/songs/backpages.html

Crimson flames tied through my ears
Rollin' high and mighty traps
Pounced with fire on flaming roads
Using ideas as my maps
"We'll meet on edges, soon," said I
Proud 'neath heated brow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.

Half-wracked prejudice leaped forth
"Rip down all hate," I screamed
Lies that life is black and white
Spoke from my skull. I dreamed
Romantic facts of musketeers
Foundationed deep, somehow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.

Girls' faces formed the forward path
From phony jealousy
To memorizing politics
Of ancient history
Flung down by corpse evangelists
Unthought of, though, somehow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.

A self-ordained professor's tongue
Too serious to fool
Spouted out that liberty
Is just equality in school
"Equality," I spoke the word
As if a wedding vow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.

In a soldier's stance, I aimed my hand
At the mongrel dogs who teach
Fearing not that I'd become my enemy
In the instant that I preach
My pathway led by confusion boats
Mutiny from stern to bow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.

Yes, my guard stood hard when abstract threats
Too noble to neglect
Deceived me into thinking
I had something to protect
Good and bad, I define these terms
Quite clear, no doubt, somehow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.

My teenage hero had already seen the light! and my mother had seen it before
I had!

Lets hope that Lorian's son also has some kind of defining moment that he
will see for himself, however that may happen.

Dennis

"Dennis Here" youreply
wrote in message ...

CME wrote in message ...

And you know what? That's the risk you take, but what you need to do is
make him realize that if he's to live in your house, he needs to respect
your rules and really the choice is his. If he leaves or you kick him
out,


Snip other good advice

I have to disagree here Christine as my POV is a lot different to yours.
I do not live in "my" house with my son, I live in our house. House rules
are two way, I don't set them, we agree to them. Obviously at Freddie's
age
some basics are more my domain than his but at the age of Lorian's son,
and
I have two grown sons go through this stage, there has to be a big element
of give and take based on mutual respect. It seems that going through an
angst stage where he has little respect for her or anyone else for that
matter. He is testing his limits and is finding that they are almost
limitless at the moment.

I agree with you there, and the 'our' house if a good point. But I'm
alittle old school in the thought that it's my house, because I'm paying the
rent, etc. lol I guess it's my father leaping out of my throat when I say
that. Wow, who knew? lol

..He will not stop until he realises that treating people with contempt if
not the best way in life. He will be thinking, and
not without reason, that everyone around him is treating him with contempt
too. He thinks that he knows better than his mother and is ready and
confident enough to find out for himself. To us it is a dreadfull stage in
the development of an adolescent boy, to him it is merely testing the
water
and establishing himself as an adult capable of finding his own way in
life.
I left home a 16. I was fed up with the restrictions and expectations of
my
father. We fought all the time. I disagreed with everything he said and
stood for. I was going to change the world. I would play Bob Dylan records
at full volume just to **** him off! To an outsider I was an arrogant
arsehole with a big attitude. To myself and my piers I was a self
confident
ground breaker who new where he was going for myself.

I suppose the biggest breakthrough was made by my mother as I still
remember
it clearly. After a full blast rendition of a Bob Dylan track entitled "My
back Pages" from the Anotherside of LP, she quietly said that she really
liked that one. I was thoroughly ****ed off that I had had the opposite
affect to that intended and went to listen to it again quietly. I had only
heard what I wanted to hear and completely overlooked the chorus.
Here are the words from
http://www.bobdylan.com/songs/backpages.html

Crimson flames tied through my ears
Rollin' high and mighty traps
Pounced with fire on flaming roads
Using ideas as my maps
"We'll meet on edges, soon," said I
Proud 'neath heated brow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.

Half-wracked prejudice leaped forth
"Rip down all hate," I screamed
Lies that life is black and white
Spoke from my skull. I dreamed
Romantic facts of musketeers
Foundationed deep, somehow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.

Girls' faces formed the forward path
From phony jealousy
To memorizing politics
Of ancient history
Flung down by corpse evangelists
Unthought of, though, somehow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.

A self-ordained professor's tongue
Too serious to fool
Spouted out that liberty
Is just equality in school
"Equality," I spoke the word
As if a wedding vow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.

In a soldier's stance, I aimed my hand
At the mongrel dogs who teach
Fearing not that I'd become my enemy
In the instant that I preach
My pathway led by confusion boats
Mutiny from stern to bow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.

Yes, my guard stood hard when abstract threats
Too noble to neglect
Deceived me into thinking
I had something to protect
Good and bad, I define these terms
Quite clear, no doubt, somehow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.

My teenage hero had already seen the light! and my mother had seen it
before
I had!

Lets hope that Lorian's son also has some kind of defining moment that he
will see for himself, however that may happen.

Dennis


Yeah, mine was probably when I left home and realized how bloody naive I
was. The only thing that kept me alive was that I had brains, and I learned
fast. I even remember spending a cold, hungry night outside walking the
piers of Victoria because I had no where else to go. What a rough
awakening. But my truly defining moment didn't come until later, when I
became pregnant. I knew I was responsible for someone other than myself,
and I needed to get my **** together. I'm proud that I've made it.

Christine

CME wrote:
And you know what? That's the risk you take, but what you need to do
is make him realize that if he's to live in your house, he needs to
respect your rules and really the choice is his. If he leaves or you
kick him out, it was his choice, and if he does wind up on the
street, then you make him aware that he can always come home.

Scary, but good advice. If/when he lives with me again.

Just a thought, but have you ever considered that the way people see
you, is a reflection of how you see yourself? How can you expect
others to see your value, if YOU do not even see it?

yeah, because when I have confidence others react to that. When I am
depressed I try to isolate myself so as not to be a burden onothers, but my
poor son has always been around me through these mood swings and through the
fall out of the trauma of the abuse I've taken from others and he must have
felt so powerless to help me and of course I was not able to be there for
him emotionally, that is a big part of why he is so angry at me I am sure.
Also, my confidence level is a main factor of my manic-depression. When I
am manic, I am very confident when I am depressed I feel worthless, no
matter what. The meds help a lot but only go so far.

I'm a big
believer in self-image and directing my own life... if you believe
you're worthless etc, then why would others think differently? Not
letting people walk all over you is part of that too, it's about
self-respect.

It's also about me just being too tired and defeated to say no. And a
learned fear of saying no.

I've come a looooong way baby, because I *used* to see
my value through others, namely men,

this one I figured out a few months ago and I realized that even though I
wasn't dating anyone I was still relying on the approval I got from the men
in my life that I fixed computers for, or bought computer parts from, or
that worked at the bar that I liked to go to on Saturday nights (safe men,
because I have a rule against dating bar staff) or just any man that thought
I was pretty or funny or smart or whatever. That was a high that I knew
deep down that could vanish at any moment and that it wasn't right to rely
on others for my self-esteem. So, I stopped going to the bar for awhile and
distanced myself from everybody emotionally and asked myself what I liked to
do that was just for me. This took awhile. I remembered that in college I
had studied creative writing. So, I started going to poetry readings. Then
I started writing poetry again and my creativity came back like a flood, I
still can hardly keep up enough pen and scraps of paper to write it all down
as it comes to me. This is where lasting self esteem comes from, within.
And now I have a reputation at the bar (it's really my main social outlet, I
have good friends there who are all sober as they work there and they are
educated and intelligent and respect me) for being a writer and they like my
songs and encourage me as I pursue my education in genetics. It's my son
who doesn't respect me.

and although I thought I was a
good person, there was always that little voice inside of me, you
know the one, the one that says you're nothing (well it was actually
my mother in my head, but that's another story. lol)

I take a pill for that, LOL. Sometimes my mother does try to help me love
myself and I do respect her for the fact that she did leave my father and
she did raise my brother and I alone and she did go get a job as a bus
driver that she has had all these years and she is now doing that and caring
for my dying stepdad too. It's just that she has a lot of shame issues
herself so ultimately that is what comes through from her. And I don't know
that I will ever overcome my childhood, I can't usually remember it except
in times of extreme duress.

Well it's hard
work to break that cycle, and therapy helped me see all these things
(well that and just basic University classes). So if *I* can do it,
so can you Lorian.

I'm glad you have such confidence in me, and thank you for sharing your
story, it does give me hope that if I continue to work hard and seek help
for my son and I that we can make a better way.

Paul Fritz wrote:
16 years of dealing with LL misandrist rantings......I'm surprised it
didn't happen sooner.

But in her mind...it will always be someone else's fault

I shouldn't respond to this but I am going to.

First, I asked for people with condemnation and judgment not to reply but
you, Paul Fritz, overstepped my boundaries once again because you do not
have any respect for women's boundaries, because you are an abuser.

Second, you have no right to judge me as a "misandrist" which means man
hater. You are a woman hater, that is clear from your years of posting lies
and hate about women here and on alt.child-support so I have often wondered
about your daughter and her reaction to how you view women so derogatively,
especially since you so rarely talk about your daughter online at all,
preferring instead to target ME for your hatred and rage and tooting your
own horn.

Third, I did not place blame for my son's abusive attitude toward me on
anything other than the fact that I and I alone raised him in an environment
where he saw me being abused by men and now that has come back to bite me in
the ass and I, and I alone, have done everything within my power to change
the course of his future.