help me keep my son from perpetuating the cycle of abuse (very long)

CME wrote:
"Paul Fritz" wrote in message
...
16 years of dealing with LL misandrist rantings......I'm surprised
it didn't happen sooner.

But in her mind...it will always be someone else's fault


That is so unfair Paul, I didn't see her blaming her son's behaviour
on anyone BUT herself. Give your ****ing agenda a rest.

Thank you Christine, sometimes Paul needs a reality check and I appreciate
the validation.

wrote in message news:[email protected]

yeah, because when I have confidence others react to that. When I am
depressed I try to isolate myself so as not to be a burden onothers, but
my
poor son has always been around me through these mood swings and through
the
fall out of the trauma of the abuse I've taken from others and he must
have
felt so powerless to help me and of course I was not able to be there for
him emotionally, that is a big part of why he is so angry at me I am sure.
Also, my confidence level is a main factor of my manic-depression. When I
am manic, I am very confident when I am depressed I feel worthless, no
matter what. The meds help a lot but only go so far.


You know what, this is the sanest thing i've ever read from you. This is all
real stuff. Don't tolerate what your kid is doing because of this stuff, but
accepting you played a part in causing it is a huge deal. Also, know where
he's comming from.

Think of when your at wits end with everything around you. imagine being
your son, unable to stop it. Think of how it hurts you to be rejected by
people you care about, then think of how he must have felt when you were in
your harder moments.

My advice, let him cool off in foster care. Take some time for yourself,
sleep in a bit if your work situation permits it, try to eat a bit better
then normal for a while, try to go for a half hour walk everyday, call a
friend once a day, don't dump on them, ask them how they are, and listen,
and once a day, without telling anyone, do something for someone you don't
know. Throw some change at a bum, drop some old clothes off at a womans
shelter, volunteer somewhere, offeer a homeless guy a cigarette ( if you
smoke ) doensn't have to be anything huge, just don't tell anyone.

Then after al that, sit down with your son, have a frank discussion. Tell
him you know he's had it rough, tell him what you just said here about how
you know you affect him. Then tell him that despite all that, the two of you
need to have a relationship together where you have some respect for each
other. It'll be hard at first, but i don't think your son is a bad kid, just
a hurt one acting bad. I think you'll both find alot of forgiveness.

Good luck, I don't like you as a person, and It shouldn't matter who does
and who doesn't anyways. you do have a child, and the both of you deserve
each other.

When you start taking responsibility for the stuff you have a part in, you
won't feel the need to **** on yourself unfairly anymore Lorian. I replied
to this mostly cause it looks like your starting to do that.

Dennis Here wrote:

So you should be!
I did the classic out of my bedroom window on a rope escape when I
left home. A sleeping bag over my shoulder with a few basics wrapped
up inside. It was towards the end of the "beatnik" era in the mid
sixties. I think I had just finished reading Jack Keroac's "On the
Road" , a must read at the time. The first night I slept under
Bournemouth pier, then I found a bandstand in the park before
graduation to derelict buildings in London. Money was short so I went
to Kent and got casual work on the hop and fruit farms and found a
crowd of people just like me! Actually Lorian could do worse than
give him a copy wrapped up in a sleeping bag!

"On The Road" is a classic! and I've been trying to get him to read the
commonly banned "Catcher in the Rye" I think he could relate a lot and maybe
feel better.

I don't mind kids with
an "attitude" as long as they have had the basic grounding during
their formative years, which, I have to say, seem to be fewer with
each generation. I still believe that the first ones into these
things are also the first ones to come out the other end and get on
with their lives. Seems it did neither of us any harm though it took
years to build a relationship with my father again. I had only just
got there when he died.

What you are both forgetting is how the street is a whole different place
now than it was in the '60s or even the '80s. We have AIDS for one thing, a
lot more adults out there who are also homeless, a lot more hard core drugs,
and precious few resources to go around for all who need them out there. He
is not street smart, he wouldn't make it, it would destroy him.

Rolly The Pervert wrote:
wrote in message
news:[email protected]

yeah, because when I have confidence others react to that. When I am
depressed I try to isolate myself so as not to be a burden onothers,
but my poor son has always been around me through these mood swings
and through the fall out of the trauma of the abuse I've taken from
others and he must have felt so powerless to help me and of course I
was not able to be there for him emotionally, that is a big part of
why he is so angry at me I am sure. Also, my confidence level is a
main factor of my manic-depression. When I am manic, I am very
confident when I am depressed I feel worthless, no matter what. The
meds help a lot but only go so far.

You know what, this is the sanest thing i've ever read from you.

Then you haven't really been paying attention until now.

This
is all real stuff. Don't tolerate what your kid is doing because of
this stuff, but accepting you played a part in causing it is a huge
deal.

I have been blaming myself since before he was born, so has everyone else,
what more do you want from me?

Also, know where he's comming from.

I do put myself in his shoes and he is still a child and I already said
repeatedly that I knew how he must hurt to have lived with me because I knew
how it hurt to live with my parents.

Think of when your at wits end with everything around you. imagine
being your son, unable to stop it. Think of how it hurts you to be
rejected by people you care about, then think of how he must have
felt when you were in your harder moments.

I do. It tortures me.

My advice, let him cool off in foster care. Take some time for
yourself, sleep in a bit if your work situation permits it, try to
eat a bit better then normal for a while, try to go for a half hour
walk everyday, call a friend once a day, don't dump on them, ask them
how they are, and listen, and once a day, without telling anyone, do
something for someone you don't know. Throw some change at a bum,
drop some old clothes off at a womans shelter, volunteer somewhere,
offeer a homeless guy a cigarette ( if you smoke ) doensn't have to
be anything huge, just don't tell anyone.

I don't smoke, I always find myself apologizing for that when I say that I
do not have a cigarette but I would give them one if I did (even though
this only perpetuates their addiction. Relief is relief.) And I have
always helped those less fortunate to me no matter how poor I have gotten, I
even have advice to others on how to do so on my webpage:

http://home.comcast.net/~lorian.gray/spiraloflife.html

Then after al that, sit down with your son, have a frank discussion.
Tell him you know he's had it rough, tell him what you just said here
about how you know you affect him. Then tell him that despite all
that, the two of you need to have a relationship together where you
have some respect for each other. It'll be hard at first, but i don't
think your son is a bad kid, just a hurt one acting bad. I think
you'll both find alot of forgiveness.

I hope this happens for us one day soon.

Good luck, I don't like you as a person, and It shouldn't matter who
does and who doesn't anyways. you do have a child, and the both of
you deserve each other.

I think you do not know me very well at all to make that kind of judgment
about me as a person and I am very suspicious of who you are but I trust
that you want the best for my son and that you still see that I am a
positive in his life.

When you start taking responsibility for the stuff you have a part
in, you won't feel the need to **** on yourself unfairly anymore
Lorian.

Wrong. I have always taken responsibility for my son from the day I found
out I was pregnant with him, everyone else abandoned us and their
responsibility to him and to me and had nothing but contempt, including
society in general. Hate the poor may as well be our country's motto. But
I have always stood by my son and have always tried my best to get help from
the people who are getting PAID to help families like ours but the system
has failed us repeatedly. I did not do this alone and I will not accept all
the blame alone either.

I replied to this mostly cause it looks like your starting to
do that.

Thank you.

wrote in message news:[email protected]
Dennis Here wrote:

So you should be!
I did the classic out of my bedroom window on a rope escape when I
left home. A sleeping bag over my shoulder with a few basics wrapped
up inside. It was towards the end of the "beatnik" era in the mid
sixties. I think I had just finished reading Jack Keroac's "On the
Road" , a must read at the time. The first night I slept under
Bournemouth pier, then I found a bandstand in the park before
graduation to derelict buildings in London. Money was short so I went
to Kent and got casual work on the hop and fruit farms and found a
crowd of people just like me! Actually Lorian could do worse than
give him a copy wrapped up in a sleeping bag!

"On The Road" is a classic! and I've been trying to get him to read the
commonly banned "Catcher in the Rye" I think he could relate a lot and
maybe
feel better.

I don't mind kids with
an "attitude" as long as they have had the basic grounding during
their formative years, which, I have to say, seem to be fewer with
each generation. I still believe that the first ones into these
things are also the first ones to come out the other end and get on
with their lives. Seems it did neither of us any harm though it took
years to build a relationship with my father again. I had only just
got there when he died.

What you are both forgetting is how the street is a whole different place
now than it was in the '60s or even the '80s. We have AIDS for one thing,
a
lot more adults out there who are also homeless, a lot more hard core
drugs,
and precious few resources to go around for all who need them out there.
He
is not street smart, he wouldn't make it, it would destroy him.


No it wouldn't. I was on the street in the mid 90's. If he's smart, and
stays away from the hard core drugs (crack and heroin) he'll make it out
again. And as a male, he has alot more going for him, then I did at 17. It
was a rough time for me, but you know what? I look back, mostly in
fondness. Although I made some poor decisions, I wouldn't change them
because it wouldn't make me the person I am today. If he has skills, he'll
be just fine. He's at that age, where you have to let him go... but make
sure he knows that you love him no matter what.

Christine

Rolly The Pervert wrote in message ...


You know what, this is the sanest thing i've ever read from you. This is
all
real stuff. Don't tolerate what your kid is doing because of this stuff,
but
accepting you played a part in causing it is a huge deal. Also, know where
he's comming from.

Think of when your at wits end with everything around you. imagine being
your son, unable to stop it. Think of how it hurts you to be rejected by
people you care about, then think of how he must have felt when you were in
your harder moments.

My advice, let him cool off in foster care. Take some time for yourself,
sleep in a bit if your work situation permits it, try to eat a bit better
then normal for a while, try to go for a half hour walk everyday, call a
friend once a day, don't dump on them, ask them how they are, and listen,
and once a day, without telling anyone, do something for someone you don't
know. Throw some change at a bum, drop some old clothes off at a womans
shelter, volunteer somewhere, offeer a homeless guy a cigarette ( if you
smoke ) doensn't have to be anything huge, just don't tell anyone.

Then after al that, sit down with your son, have a frank discussion. Tell
him you know he's had it rough, tell him what you just said here about how
you know you affect him. Then tell him that despite all that, the two of
you
need to have a relationship together where you have some respect for each
other. It'll be hard at first, but i don't think your son is a bad kid,
just
a hurt one acting bad. I think you'll both find alot of forgiveness.

Good luck, I don't like you as a person, and It shouldn't matter who does
and who doesn't anyways. you do have a child, and the both of you deserve
each other.

When you start taking responsibility for the stuff you have a part in, you
won't feel the need to **** on yourself unfairly anymore Lorian. I replied
to this mostly cause it looks like your starting to do that.

Tom, you are showing wisdom way beyond your years.
A good post based on the reality of the current situation.
The past will only give an understanding, it cannot help in the here and
now.

Dennis

wrote in message ...

What you are both forgetting is how the street is a whole different place
now than it was in the '60s or even the '80s. We have AIDS for one thing,
a
lot more adults out there who are also homeless, a lot more hard core
drugs,
and precious few resources to go around for all who need them out there.
He
is not street smart, he wouldn't make it, it would destroy him.

It could make him too.
Like I said, if you are confident that you have done the groundwork, that he
knows right from wrong, he will be just fine.
Heroin was available in the sixties as well, two friends of mine died from
it. I chose to leave it but a joint never did me any harm. A lot of other
friends were acid freaks, they are all still alive. I think Alan Ginsburg
only died recently and not from drugs.
I grew up in a small village in Devon in SW England. I was not street wise
either but I had a sixth sense that got me past the gay guys and kept me the
right side of the law. I lived and worked with people from all walks of
life. Gypsies, down and outs and other young people like myself. I learnt
from all of them. I experienced discrimination for the first time in my
life. I found ways around it and learned how to get on with everyone.
Schools or parents cannot teach you this stuff.
Let him go with your blessing but be there for him. You will get a letter or
Email from him within a month or so.

Dennis

"Rolly The Pervert" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
news:[email protected]
Paul Fritz wrote:
16 years of dealing with LL misandrist rantings......I'm surprised it
didn't happen sooner.

But in her mind...it will always be someone else's fault

I shouldn't respond to this but I am going to.

Cause you have no self control

Hit the nail on the head that time


First, I asked for people with condemnation and judgment not to reply
but
you, Paul Fritz, overstepped my boundaries once again because you do not
have any respect for women's boundaries, because you are an abuser.


No it's usenet. You askign anyone not to reply is over stepping your
boundries.

After all these years, looney still hasn't grasped the concept of an
unmoderated NG



Second, you have no right to judge me as a "misandrist" which means man
hater. You are a woman hater, that is clear from your years of posting
lies
and hate about women here and on alt.child-support so I have often
wondered
about your daughter and her reaction to how you view women so
derogatively,
especially since you so rarely talk about your daughter online at all,
preferring instead to target ME for your hatred and rage and tooting
your
own horn.


Now she uses his kid as a weapon, and starts with the I'm a Woman, your an
abuser BS.

What is comical is that looney says 'I' have no right to judge, and then
jumps to her own looney tunes judgements.
It grinds her that I am sucessful in most things, from child raising to
business........


LooNey Lorian still can't accept responsibility for her own ****.

why she is where she is and I am where I am.


Third, I did not place blame for my son's abusive attitude toward me on
anything other than the fact that I and I alone raised him in an
environment
where he saw me being abused by men and now that has come back to bite
me
in
the ass and I, and I alone, have done everything within my power to
change
the course of his future.


What a crock of ****.

You got that right..........in looney land, it is still somebody else's
fault, she has got her head so far up her ass she cannot see what the
damage of her misandrist life has done to her son.

You failed to move on, your still living and acting as
if you are with someone who beats you. whatever any man has ever done to
you
can't come close to what you've done to yourself. You've reduced yourself
to
someone who takes pills for pain, pills to sleep, pills to not be
depressed,
pills to not be manic. Your someone who is still in every 2nd post blaming
everything since you left on your X on him and the men in your life. You
atract what you put out lady, if your a co-dependant, your gonna atract
control freaks and assorted assholes. You got some repressed something
that
you can't get past, it's why you've sounded like a broken record all these
years.

And before you go calling me a manhater, I came here at your request,
cause
you cried and whined about being trolled abusively. I subbed, read, and
when
I pointed out that no on was trolling you, you had been a willing
participant, and what they were saying wasn't completely untrue, you
flipped
on me, called me a woman hater ( there went a year long friendship because
I
wouldnt co-sign your bull**** huh ) *ps, if she replies to this and
denies,
I'll have a bot setup to repost everything that happened here that month.

You are not the first for that to happen.

Looney constantly whines about how 'abusive' am, yet she has been killfiled
for so years.....the only post I see of hers are responses from somebody
else.



Get a grip, your son needs you, it's time to help him heel from all the
years of being the son of a looney mar00n. Pick your ass up, take it to a
CODA meeting, and get some help. Your not responsible for your disease,
but
you are for your recovery baby

"Rolly The Pervert" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
news:[email protected]

yeah, because when I have confidence others react to that. When I am
depressed I try to isolate myself so as not to be a burden onothers, but
my
poor son has always been around me through these mood swings and through
the
fall out of the trauma of the abuse I've taken from others and he must
have
felt so powerless to help me and of course I was not able to be there
for
him emotionally, that is a big part of why he is so angry at me I am
sure.
Also, my confidence level is a main factor of my manic-depression. When
I
am manic, I am very confident when I am depressed I feel worthless, no
matter what. The meds help a lot but only go so far.


You know what, this is the sanest thing i've ever read from you. This is
all
real stuff. Don't tolerate what your kid is doing because of this stuff,
but
accepting you played a part in causing it is a huge deal. Also, know where
he's comming from.

Think of when your at wits end with everything around you. imagine being
your son, unable to stop it. Think of how it hurts you to be rejected by
people you care about, then think of how he must have felt when you were
in
your harder moments.

My advice, let him cool off in foster care. Take some time for yourself,
sleep in a bit if your work situation permits it, try to eat a bit better
then normal for a while, try to go for a half hour walk everyday, call a
friend once a day, don't dump on them, ask them how they are, and listen,
and once a day, without telling anyone, do something for someone you don't
know. Throw some change at a bum, drop some old clothes off at a womans
shelter, volunteer somewhere, offeer a homeless guy a cigarette ( if you
smoke ) doensn't have to be anything huge, just don't tell anyone.

Then after al that, sit down with your son, have a frank discussion. Tell
him you know he's had it rough, tell him what you just said here about how
you know you affect him. Then tell him that despite all that, the two of
you
need to have a relationship together where you have some respect for each
other. It'll be hard at first, but i don't think your son is a bad kid,
just
a hurt one acting bad. I think you'll both find alot of forgiveness.

Good luck, I don't like you as a person, and It shouldn't matter who does
and who doesn't anyways. you do have a child, and the both of you deserve
each other.

When you start taking responsibility for the stuff you have a part in, you
won't feel the need to **** on yourself unfairly anymore Lorian. I replied
to this mostly cause it looks like your starting to do that.


Well done, Tom. You have a bigger heart than I, it was clear from the very
first reply from Betsy that she wasn't going to get the point. Yet you
still took the time. Man oh man you're doing well these days!!!!

Lisa

wrote in message news:[email protected]
Snip

Lorian, OMG....this post!!!.. I cannot even begin to imagine how you must
have suffered, firstly as a child and now as an adult. Not only were you
shortchanged by your parents, but their abuse of you was their legacy to you
and is probably the cause of your illness. And this legacy of theirs has not
only hurt you, but is being handed down to your son, but not deliberately on
your part. You've obviously worked hard at not being your mother or
father...But that's one hell of a tough thing to do...It's a known fact that
abuse is a hard cycle to break...and all credit to you for what you've
done...You've broken the physical cycle from what I can gather...but the
psychological one is the hardest....but you are obviously trying and deserve
credit for it. I cant imaging how worn down and tired you must be. These
teenage years of your sons are probably going to be the hardest too, my
heart goes out to you.

I think you should be congratulated on the gift of education you've given
your son. I reckon this is one part of you that hasnt been contanimated by
your parents. You were clear, determined and knew what you were doing. I
would say this most definitely came across to your son, otherwise he wouldnt
be as knowledgeable as he is. I'd say he has a quiet respect for this side
of you. Now if your parents had left you alone, brought you up with
kindness, decency and been good to you, then the mother that educated your
son would be the same mother that knew how to set boundaries, say no and be
comfortable in her own skin (if that makes sense). Unfortuantely they
stripped you of this and it's been your downfall. I dont think it's your
fault, I think its theirs. As a result your son has had to deal with two
mothers, the one that knew what she was doing and the other one that was
grasping at straws, grappling with herself and unsure. He probably sensed
this from a very young age and got away with murder, now he's older and
fighting back, or more to the point begging for help but doesnt have the
know how. Reading your post about the mocha drink he *sounds* like one hell
of a spoilt brat!! (Sorry, no offence intended). I would say though it's
more a case that you are the only person that he has that he can really
truly be himself with, and is letting out all his frustrations on you.

I believe kicking him out on to the street will probably destroy him and
ruin all the hard work you've put in, not to mention a waste of all the
hours of agony that you've gone through. You'd be perpetuating the cycle
too..... Breaking it however, is tough and I dont think you will be able to
do it on your own, simply cos you havent got the tools or know how (thanks
to your parents). This is where fostering to a good home where there are
other kids would be a good idea. It would help him in the future, but do
nothing for you as a parent. And you need help too

Going by what you've said it seems to me that this lad didnt really have
many rules or boundaries imposed on him, probably becuase you didnt know how
to say no.....not that you didnt want to...just probably cos you didnt know
when it was appropriate....God!!...I hope I'm not offending you here....

This lad sounds as though he really and truly needs genuine love and
attention, to know that he is cherished, *important to somebody*, ideally
you...and needed. You really need to let him know that you truly love him
and that love is unconditional. After all, given what he witnessed as a
child you are hardly in a position to expect pristine behaviour when your
own wasnt that great....and he know this and will flog it to the death if
you let him. You cant threaten him with the door because his behaviour is in
the gutter, when he grew up watching your behaviour with these men.

If he's willing, sit him down, tell him about your own childhood, how you
felt at the time and how it affected you growing up. Acknowledge to him that
maybe you werent the best parent starting off but now you know you were
wrong. *Ask* him what he needs from you. Make it quite clear that he is as
much a part of the family as you are and this is his home, it always will
be. Tell him that you *need* his help at sorting this out and that you are
going to keep trying, you will never give up on him. Get him to open up to
you if you can.

However, at some point you really have to set boundaries and rules, give him
responsiblity in the home. If this is his home, as much as yours, then he
should treat it as such and pull his weight. And these rules have to apply
to you too. He is entitled to expect a certain standard of behaviour from
you too, just as my lads are entitled to expect a certain standard of
behaviour from me. Threatening to throw him on the street is just a more
subtle way of perpetuating the cycle of abuse that you recieved, it's
instilling fear and builds hostility in his mind.

If he's not willing to listen, or it ends up in a fight, sit down and write
a letter/email to him. Dont doubt he will read it, a letter never goes
unread.

However, I do feel it would do him the world of good to go and see how other
people live. Call it fostering if you like, but I'd be more inclined to tell
him that this is a great opportunity for him to go and see how other people
live. Be open about the fact that it will show him how wrong some of the
things you did were, and this is a great chance to break the loop. After
all, in years to come he might have a family of his own and this time seeing
how another family behave might be his saving grace.

If he does go to another family though make sure you see or speak to him
every single day, without fail, at the same time every day too, so that he
knows he can rely on you. First thing in the morning to wish him well and
last thing after dinner to see how he is and how he got on. When he comes
home ask him what he thinks, and get him to talk in detail if you can, be
open about the differences between how you dealt with hiim and how they do.
Make it quite clear that this is only a temporary arrangement, that you are
under no circumstances turning your back on him or giving up on him. And
while he is off with this other family you should foster yourself out
too.....Parenting classes are a start and I'm sure if you asked around
someone could give you some idea of where to go......

Well, all the above are only my opinion, for what its worth and hope I
havent offened you, as that is not my intention. I'm not really qualified
or experienced enough either cos my lads are still only young at 11 and 13,
I dont have the wisdom of hindsight as of yet...as many others here in the
group do......However, I really feel for what you are going through and hope
you and your son manage to get through this. Best of luck

Dolores









Who is this child
and where is my real son? How do I get him back? Why won't the system
stop
screwing around and help us? Now what do I do?